FM-2 Fan
Well-Known Member
A pension is a mighty valuable thing these days. How many employers even have them anymore?
Update: UPS flight dispatchers are asking to be paid like counterparts at Delta, American
- Thread starter dxbear
- Start date
Excellent question.... Dont know the answer to that....
It does however bring the whole debate back to what the dispatcher at UPS is worth to UPS. Thats all that really matters. How much money UPS makes means absolutely nothing! There is this really silly belief that employees deserve more money if the company makes more money. I dont know who lied to you and told you thats the a profession works but you were dupped. The only thing you are "ENTITLED" to is the amount of money the company agreed to pay you in your contract.
With that said... Everyone should be rooting for UPS and Delta to get a nice increase in compensation in their next contract.. Does not mean it will happen tho
Dart_8992
Well-Known Member
How many do you trust will still have it available to you when you retire? Personally I prefer a 401k match. I know the benefits of a pension, but you're relying on a company to take care of your financial well being. History has proven they can't be trusted.
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FM-2 Fan
Well-Known Member
Who says the company will even be around when one retires? That's the real question. Do companies screw their employees out of their earned benefits? Yes, but that assumes that they'll even be around to do so; that assumes that they'll still exist when one is ready to retire-a generous assumption in these days and times! Exhibit A is the airline industry.
Altimeter
Well-Known Member
Lol I essentially asked this, but am apparently some Management Stooge for having a thought besides, Disoatcher should be making the most money ever!!!!
Its true you negotiate to keep a pension or 401k, but that's for retirement. The only measure of today is hourly compensation. That's what makes a diff in your quality of life, what helps overlook crappy hours in the middle of the night, and provides school for your kids. The pension is the dream we all hope for. Most of us have to make our own with a 401 taking money off the top of what we make today (back to hourly compensation). Hourly rates give us our quality of life. We don't measure job vs job based on retirement, we base it on todays pay rates. UPS is a major and should be making a comparable wage to the other majors. The company would love to calculate in what the pension is worth and minimize todays compensation package. Unions minimize it because its not realized income until you get there and has no effect on health insurance, disability, or anything else today.
Retirement is important, don't get me wrong. But the hourly sets today's living.
There is no belief that pay is based on how much profit a company makes. It does, however, determine that the company is able to pay an industry average wage and compensation package during today's negotiations making any concession a non starter.
Good thing the freighters are box delivery companies and not airlines. They may still have a chance to be around for a retirement.
Retirement is important, don't get me wrong. But the hourly sets today's living.
There is no belief that pay is based on how much profit a company makes. It does, however, determine that the company is able to pay an industry average wage and compensation package during today's negotiations making any concession a non starter.
Good thing the freighters are box delivery companies and not airlines. They may still have a chance to be around for a retirement.
Yes, UPS is still way behind no matter what the pension is and should be brought up to major airline industry standard and that will help everyone else when they're turn is up.
I'm curious what people feel the pension is worth compared to a 401 match? Can someone answer what the pension pays in retirement? If you are convinced UPS should accept less because they have a pension, then how much less is fair? What less should they be willing to accept? I would expect the profit share airlines to determine how much less they should make due to some substantial profits and checks being cashed today. Maybe the profit sharing is worth significantly more since you realize that cash today and can pay down your house or buy a new car with it. Meanwhile, UPS has to wait to realize any gain until they retire.
So what's it worth? How much less is a profit share airline willing to accept because of their total compensation package during record profits? How much less should UPS accept or any airline with a pension?
I'm curious what people feel the pension is worth compared to a 401 match? Can someone answer what the pension pays in retirement? If you are convinced UPS should accept less because they have a pension, then how much less is fair? What less should they be willing to accept? I would expect the profit share airlines to determine how much less they should make due to some substantial profits and checks being cashed today. Maybe the profit sharing is worth significantly more since you realize that cash today and can pay down your house or buy a new car with it. Meanwhile, UPS has to wait to realize any gain until they retire.
So what's it worth? How much less is a profit share airline willing to accept because of their total compensation package during record profits? How much less should UPS accept or any airline with a pension?
CRJInTheHeartOfTexas
бог благословит мать россия
Do you feel the Bern?
No one stating they should take less.. The only argument is we cannot compare just hourly wages... Its a total compensation that is compared.
How much an employee contributes to their healthcare is part of that
How much an employee receives in retirement benefits is part of that
I have no idea how they compare to other places....
CRJ-- Who is the bern?
How much an employee contributes to their healthcare is part of that
How much an employee receives in retirement benefits is part of that
I have no idea how they compare to other places....
CRJ-- Who is the bern?
Altimeter
Well-Known Member
If starting your own 401 is a choice (very smart one) the difference is we HAVE to give up a portion of our pay scale for retirement. If you don’t want a retirement and wanna roll in the Hellcat that’s your choice, too.
Is the pension available at X years of service or a certain age?
Altimeter
Well-Known Member
Like if you’re Top of scale no OT making $140k-ish and you max your 401k and IRA each year that’s what $23k so you’re really only making $127k pre tax? If (all other things considered equal) you’re making $150K with a pension and you max out an IRA, then you’re making $20k or so a year more for today and tomorrow’s standard of living.
Mongo
Well-Known Member
Here is the catch... UPS has always considered benifits as an on property comparison not off. So if the Pilots have it then in the past the Drivers, Mechanics and Dispatchers have it. Compensation on the other hand has always been considered between our peer groups. The difference this time around is that the company has chosen to abuse the Railway Labor act. They know they can extend this out to infinity with very little interface from the Feds. Same thing happened with the IPA and finally the Feds told UPS to get their crap together (5 years) and poof an industry leading contract that included a Pension plan was created.
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
Why does anyone here assume that the total compensation package is not being compared? We do not have amateurs negotiating our contract. The idea that anyone is looking at just hourly wages needs to be forgotten because that’s just not how it works. Come on guys...
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Altimeter
Well-Known Member
We have to assume/speculate. I’ll assume again, most of us don’t know 100% y’alls scale, how the pension works, etc. Generally speaking, “trust me we don’t make enough” is a pretty weak response. Most of also know we contracts/pay scales can’t be posted. It might not help how how defensive some posts have been. I can for sure admit fault in at least insinuating that box dxer vs pax dxer could/should affect payscale.
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
You might call it defensive; I call it correcting baseless assumptions. Again, a perception issue.
Some of the posts and questions have been mind boggling here, starting with your initial few. I still can’t wrap my head around some of the assumptions made which were pretty negative, but people are going to say what they want.
As far as you “having” to assume and speculate, I don’t agree. You know how the game works. You know how contract negotiations work. You know the many articles that get negotiated. You know how a fair contract comes to fruition. And you know details on these things can’t be posted so why, from the get-go, wasn’t there just support for your fellow brethren? That’s the piece that boggles my mind. As someone posted, why would you want to ever bring another group down by negative comments, baseless assumptions and arguments that don’t matter?
There has been a lot of very good points raised here by others to try to deter you from these assumptions but apparently that’s all you feel you have to go off of. So then, why not shift your assumptions to the positive - that we are a group of fellow professionals that have a very good negotiating team who know what they are doing to get us a fair and hopefully leading contract, which benefits the entire industry. Yes, that’s you too. If you believed we are on a level playing field, which we are, you’d simply support us.
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Socks and sandals
Well-Known Member
Altimeter, if you are wondering why you pissed so many people off, came across as arrogant, some self awareness and maybe a review of your own posts could serve you well; allow me to assist-
"why shouldn’t they be at intermediate pay somewhere between Regionals and Legacy? There’s just so much more inherent risk moving people over boxes. To say the level of responsibility is equal negates the whole business model. If you want Mainline money, work towards a mainline job. Might sound pretty douchey, but it is what it is."
You assumed UPS is an intermediate level, and is somehow below any other job-which it is not.
As for people saying company profits are not at all related to compensation... Of course they are! When a company makes money, it's most skilled and valuable employees also make more money. The people in the executive management tend to make all the big financial decisions, so they ultimately tend to take the highest compensation. Sometimes the company heads need to be reminded how essential the skilled and irreplaceable workers who RUN THEIR COMPANY really are. Unfortunately, the disaster we call the Railway Labor Act has become an enabler for greedy self serving corporate heads who do not like to share the pie. This leaves Unions declawed, so you attempting to provide us with a self important, condescending, mickey mouse level of basic education on how economics and contract negotiations work does, in fact, serve as not only as a detriment to morale, but also tends to lead to a complacent attitude toward ones situation. The fact is, dispatchers are relatively hard to find. There tends to be an oversupply because of the structure with regionals and non transferable skill set, which is the key reason unions are necessary. Look at ATC for example. They are not getting contract raises even though they cannot seem to replace their retiring work force, and have been seen inputting mandatory retirement delays and overtime. Is this because ATC is essentially not worth much? Unskilled? Clearly they aren't replaceable.
I would venture to guess that most people could not even get through the certification process, let alone pass airline training, let alone function in the environment that dispatchers work in. It's high stress, highly cognitively demanding, and requires one to not only be extremely well informed across all different departments, but also requires one to be continually updating ones knowledge base. The formal education to "qualify" does not mean one will easily get a job, because most airlines that are worth working at will not hire someone with no experience or qualifications. It will require many many years and probably expensive education to get into a job like UPS, then many more to get to the top of the scale.
Airlines also are generally not inclined (unless they are run by smarter people who understand more than profits and financial numbers) to recognize the necessity of dispatchers, and will see them as an expense rather than an asset. Safety positions are among the most important to have the top percentiles of human performers in them, but without the pay being there, these people will not choose to work in the profession as a whole, they will most likely go where the money is. When you have a management group that doesn't understand this fact...
THAT is what negotiation tactics and strikes are for.
If you aren't going to contribute anything worthwhile and valuable, troll somewhere else, maybe 4chan, and that goes for the other professional economists/management pets here.
"why shouldn’t they be at intermediate pay somewhere between Regionals and Legacy? There’s just so much more inherent risk moving people over boxes. To say the level of responsibility is equal negates the whole business model. If you want Mainline money, work towards a mainline job. Might sound pretty douchey, but it is what it is."
You assumed UPS is an intermediate level, and is somehow below any other job-which it is not.
As for people saying company profits are not at all related to compensation... Of course they are! When a company makes money, it's most skilled and valuable employees also make more money. The people in the executive management tend to make all the big financial decisions, so they ultimately tend to take the highest compensation. Sometimes the company heads need to be reminded how essential the skilled and irreplaceable workers who RUN THEIR COMPANY really are. Unfortunately, the disaster we call the Railway Labor Act has become an enabler for greedy self serving corporate heads who do not like to share the pie. This leaves Unions declawed, so you attempting to provide us with a self important, condescending, mickey mouse level of basic education on how economics and contract negotiations work does, in fact, serve as not only as a detriment to morale, but also tends to lead to a complacent attitude toward ones situation. The fact is, dispatchers are relatively hard to find. There tends to be an oversupply because of the structure with regionals and non transferable skill set, which is the key reason unions are necessary. Look at ATC for example. They are not getting contract raises even though they cannot seem to replace their retiring work force, and have been seen inputting mandatory retirement delays and overtime. Is this because ATC is essentially not worth much? Unskilled? Clearly they aren't replaceable.
I would venture to guess that most people could not even get through the certification process, let alone pass airline training, let alone function in the environment that dispatchers work in. It's high stress, highly cognitively demanding, and requires one to not only be extremely well informed across all different departments, but also requires one to be continually updating ones knowledge base. The formal education to "qualify" does not mean one will easily get a job, because most airlines that are worth working at will not hire someone with no experience or qualifications. It will require many many years and probably expensive education to get into a job like UPS, then many more to get to the top of the scale.
Airlines also are generally not inclined (unless they are run by smarter people who understand more than profits and financial numbers) to recognize the necessity of dispatchers, and will see them as an expense rather than an asset. Safety positions are among the most important to have the top percentiles of human performers in them, but without the pay being there, these people will not choose to work in the profession as a whole, they will most likely go where the money is. When you have a management group that doesn't understand this fact...
THAT is what negotiation tactics and strikes are for.
If you aren't going to contribute anything worthwhile and valuable, troll somewhere else, maybe 4chan, and that goes for the other professional economists/management pets here.
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Good luck to all of UPS dispatchers. Many of us have bee in your shoes in the recent past and unless the RLA is amended, corporations will continue to use it to their advantage. Dispatchers play an important role in not only safety, but also have a direct role in the economics of the airline whether that is cargo or passenger transportation. IMO, their decisions impact the bottom line more than any other position within an airline. A good dispatcher can pay for his/her entire yearly salary in just one shift by putting in more effort or by not making mistakes. Eventually, corporations will all recognize this by compensation and will attract better and better talent and we are starting to see this at the major airlines as the competition for openings is fierce.
I would love to see UPS and its dispatchers raise the bar as DL did just a short time ago.
I would love to see UPS and its dispatchers raise the bar as DL did just a short time ago.
Altimeter
Well-Known Member
There are some pretty good points in there. The ATC thing is not one of them, The FAA shot their own foot when they changed they hiring practices in 2013/2014. There was a flood of Highly Educated and at least more skilled, than average Joe, CTI Graduates that got kicked to the curb. At least at my university, we spent an additional $7000 on a brand new state of the art simulator. Got us nowhere, a few of my friends/ other CTIs got in, then we still have to wait in line. The FAA made their own bed.
As far as a mainline dispatcher being invaluable/irreplaceable. How many older guys/guys on here got kicked from 9/11? I'm sure at the very least some of us have worked with a regional lifer that got booted from a major all those years ago. Who are smart and well put together people that just got dealt a bad a hand and feel safer where they are? Every time a major opens I bet at least 1000 apps are put in, and at least half of those are experienced, intelligent, well put together folks apply. We are not in short demand, If anything from reading other posts we are in surplus. It looks like some are having trouble even getting on with a regional.
The intermediate pay thing, well, it already exists! We've been talking about the intricacies of Dispatching blah blah blah. Those of us a Major Level, sitting in ivory towers complaining about fairness and equity? How can you justify victimization on this thread, and on another thread tell a hopefull newby, "yea you're just going to have to suffer like we did"?
As far as Womanpilots claim I know how a fair contract comes to fruition. No, I don't, the only contract I ever voted in was a TWU contract that ended up getting wonderful dispatcher furloughed while saving jobs for Sector Managers that don't even have a license, and it makes me sick just thinking about how bad that company duped us and how I played a role in possibly ruing some young hopeful careers. We thought the only way to save some of our jobs was to vote that contract in, the TWU president pretty much told us it is what it, you're not going to get anything better. If I had known what I do now I would have rallied against that contract to protect actual dispatchers.
You can think I'm a company stooge or a troll, you're casting stones through your own glass house. I don't even agree with a lot of the points I brought up, shallowly I hope UPS gets their cake and eats on gold plates with silver forks. It is going to benefit those at the top. In order to have an actual conversation about important things, one has to be able to risk thinking and being offensive. Its how we get to the bottom of things. Otherwise, this place is just an echo chamber of OMG dispatching is the greatest hardest most valuable least thought of most rewarding career EVER! Remeber though, "to those who have everything, more will be given. To those who have nothing, everything will be taken."
I respect all of you on here that exercise operational control. I also respect you as people with freedom of speech and as smart well-meaning folks who don't mind digging a little to get to the bottom of some things.
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]As far as Womanpilots claim I know how a fair contract comes to fruition. No, I don't, the only contract I ever voted in was a TWU contract that ended up getting wonderful dispatcher furloughed while saving jobs for Sector Managers that don't even have a license, and it makes me sick just thinking about how bad that company duped us and how I played a role in possibly ruing some young hopeful careers. We thought the only way to save some of our jobs was to vote that contract in, the TWU president pretty much told us it is what it, you're not going to get anything better. If I had known what I do now I would have rallied against that contract to protect actual dispatchers.[/QUOTE]
Well this explains everything. Sorry, I mistook you for someone who had experience with union negotiations at a major airline by the way you so arrogantly bombarded this thread with your offensive opinions, which are highly flawed, lacking actual experience and facts regarding our situation. Thanks for clarifying that you have no idea what you are talking about.
To be honest, reading your last post, all I saw was someone who’s bitter and angry at their experience in this industry. You’ve made it clear you aren’t a supporter of all major airlines gaining equality with respect to our contracts.
If you work where I think you do, I’d highly advise getting to know the in’s and out’s of your contract and how, through negotiating, unity and unwavering commitment, a contract comes to fruition. You’ll be where we are one day and trust me, you’ll wish you’d educated yourself. And for your union’s sake, I hope and pray you learn to support your peers for the greater good.
#onehundredpercent #unity
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Well this explains everything. Sorry, I mistook you for someone who had experience with union negotiations at a major airline by the way you so arrogantly bombarded this thread with your offensive opinions, which are highly flawed, lacking actual experience and facts regarding our situation. Thanks for clarifying that you have no idea what you are talking about.
To be honest, reading your last post, all I saw was someone who’s bitter and angry at their experience in this industry. You’ve made it clear you aren’t a supporter of all major airlines gaining equality with respect to our contracts.
If you work where I think you do, I’d highly advise getting to know the in’s and out’s of your contract and how, through negotiating, unity and unwavering commitment, a contract comes to fruition. You’ll be where we are one day and trust me, you’ll wish you’d educated yourself. And for your union’s sake, I hope and pray you learn to support your peers for the greater good.
#onehundredpercent #unity
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