Update: UPS flight dispatchers are asking to be paid like counterparts at Delta, American

[womanpilot73]

Are you freaking kidding me? Let’s just leave this where you said “I’ve never worked cargo before” and forget the rest. Oh the ignorance. SMH. Oh yes, completely “douchey”. We’ll leave that part in too.


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I dont agree with everything he says and I think you guys deserve a good deal but its completely ridiculous to compare profit sharing and a pension. I work at a legacy with profit sharing that is very small (less than 5%) and not contractually guaranteed. Management tomorrow can stop giving it. Our 401K matching (roughly 5%) is also not very good when compared to other legacy airlines. A pension is way more valuable than our tiny non-guaranteed profit sharing and our small 401K match.

In no way was I comparing them apples to apples. It is a piece of something you have that we don’t. I believe I also mentioned additional benefits other airline’s receive that we don’t. Of course this was in response to a post that with a pension, it doesn’t seem reasonable for us to make industry standard, which is ridiculous.


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[FM-2 Fan]

Saw that one coming. I’m sure we could agree that our job function is probably 85-90% the same, but moving people will allllllways be more volatile than boxes. It just is what it is. Boxes don’t have heart attacks, tweet out videos, or even have the capacity to consciously harm other people or property. I hope we’re all paid well, and I’ve never seen UPS’s scale, but I have seen an office get giddy AF when you guys open.

What about hazmats? You know cargo carriers move hazmats, right? Isn't moving them dicey? Can't hazmats be volatile, depending on the nature of the material? What about cargo shifting in flight? Wouldn't that pose problems of its own? How can one say that moving cargo doesn't pose its own set of challenges?

 

[womanpilot73]

Saw that one coming. I’m sure we could agree that our job function is probably 85-90% the same, but moving people will allllllways be more volatile than boxes. It just is what it is. Boxes don’t have heart attacks, tweet out videos, or even have the capacity to consciously harm other people or property. I hope we’re all paid well, and I’ve never seen UPS’s scale, but I have seen an office get giddy AF when you guys open.

What about hazmats? Isn't moving them dicey? You know cargo carriers move hazmats, right? Can't hazmats be volatile, depending on the nature of the material? What about cargo shifting in flight? Wouldn't that pose problems of its own? How can one say that moving cargo doesn't pose its own set of challenges?

You beat me to it. Lol


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[womanpilot73]

Are you freaking kidding me? Let’s just leave this where you said “I’ve never worked cargo before” and forget the rest. Oh the ignorance. SMH. Oh yes, completely “douchey”. We’ll leave that part in too.


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Saw that one coming. I’m sure we could agree that our job function is probably 85-90% the same, but moving people will allllllways be more volatile than boxes. It just is what it is. Boxes don’t have heart attacks, tweet out videos, or even have the capacity to consciously harm other people or property. I hope we’re all paid well, and I’ve never seen UPS’s scale, but I have seen an office get giddy AF when you guys open.

Our job is 100% the same whether its pax or boxes on the aircraft. We both dispatch aircraft for a major airline worldwide.

Food for thought - in addition to the complexity of the operation here, which you admittedly know nothing about, what do you think are in those boxes we fly? It’s not just your Prime Pantry order of Charmin, Tide Pods and Cheetos. You talk about pax being volatile...think about just what might be on a notoc at a cargo carrier. Yes, boxes have the “ability to harm other people or property”. A little google search can educate you in this regard.



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[CRJInTheHeartOfTexas]

Can boxes do this?

 

[Altimeter]

Our job is 100% the same whether its pax or boxes on the aircraft. We both dispatch aircraft for a major airline worldwide.

Food for thought - in addition to the complexity of the operation here, which you admittedly know nothing about, what do you think are in those boxes we fly? It’s not just your Prime Pantry order of Charmin, Tide Pods and Cheetos. You talk about pax being volatile...think about just what might be on a notoc at a cargo carrier. Yes, boxes have the “ability to harm other people or property”. A little google search can educate you in this regard.



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You guys are making great points, points I hadn’t considered. Just so we’re all clear it’s ok to not know stuff. This is a Forum. I can accept that each operation has a separate set of challenges. Which is why I say our jobs are not 100% the same. 85-90% is pretty close, but they’re still not the same. How often does your major hub (let alone the possibility for 3-4 hubs to tank at once) go into a severe IROP with ground stops and GDPs that wrecks a days operation? We have the same ticket and probably the same values when it comes to our work. Our companies do completely different things. That makes our jobs a bit different. Now if you guys are making $16/hr that’d be a bit ridiculous and I’d agree even a pension doesn’t make up for that. As far as industry, I don’t see why not compare yourselves to FedEx, Atlas, Polar, Kalitta whoever flys boxes with almost comparable complexity.

 

[Delta Echo]

Saw that one coming. I’m sure we could agree that our job function is probably 85-90% the same, but moving people will allllllways be more volatile than boxes. It just is what it is. Boxes don’t have heart attacks, tweet out videos, or even have the capacity to consciously harm other people or property. I hope we’re all paid well, and I’ve never seen UPS’s scale, but I have seen an office get giddy AF when you guys open.

Ummm, last time I checked both pax and cargo operators are in business to make money. Moving boxes may not seem that big of a deal to you, but to UPS it is just the same as Delta or Southwest or any other pax airline moving people, you don't deliver on time, you retain less business, which starts a not good spiral effect.

 

[Flying Saluki]

Some people like to think that because all these companies fly the same airplanes, they are all the same and therefore should all pay the same. But that’s not the case. Air cargo and air passenger are completely different industries, with different markets, different business models, and their own unique operating requirements.

This is not to say that UPS dispatchers shouldn’t be paid well. I’m just saying that it’s a flawed argument to say that UPS is the same as UAL, and therefore should pay the same. If you want to make the case for more money, you need to show the value that UPS dispatchers bring to the company, not point at what other, unrelated, companies pay.

 

[Altimeter]

Ummm, last time I checked both pax and cargo operators are in business to make money. Moving boxes may not seem that big of a deal to you, but to UPS it is just the same as Delta or Southwest or any other pax airline moving people, you don't deliver on time, you retain less business, which starts a not good spiral effect.

Cmon now, certainly we get a bit deeper than, companies are business to make money. Ask everyone who flys whether they’d have a 2 hour delay or get a package the next day.

 

[onemanwolfpack]

Hey dispatchers, you just might be your own worst enemies!
If I'm not mistaken, UPS pilots are the highest paid pilots in the industry. And I'm not talking about just the cargo industry.
It's a good thing that the IPA didn't buy into the argument that they should make less money than pilots that fly passengers for a living.
UPS/TWU dispatchers are no different than UPS/IPA pilots and have proved that they're worth more by ratifying two contracts that at the time were industry leading.
It appears that some of you young melinials assume that your're worth more simply because you dispatch airplanes with passengers. If that's what you really think then do everyone a favor and leave the collective bargaining up to the adults.
Some of you youngins probably don't know this but UPS used to fly passengers too.
Also, research the regs an airline must abide by when dispatching Class one explosives, which is some serious hazmat UPS regularly flys around the world through hostile coutries.
Rather than sitting on your computer trying to justify why you should make more money than a UPS dispatcher, perhaps you should thank them?

 

[womanpilot73]

It is so interesting to me that there are a few people here who think that dispatching for a cargo airline somehow equates to deserving less pay than a pax airline. I honestly can’t wrap my head around this.

It doesn’t matter if the business model is different. We are all dispatching for a major airline, each with their own complexities. UPS operations is not comparable to supplemental airlines that fly cargo as someone suggested. I used to work for one so I can absolutely attest to that with certainty. As to GDP’s and operations getting tanked, yes that is something we deal with also. We do fly 24/7 worldwide and we have multiple hubs. Some of the things that are being brought up just shows that some of you have no idea what we do here.

Let’s get back to this. The bottom line is UPS is a major airline and deserves major airline pay in line with the industry. Something to come back to and point out is that UPS had industry leading pay before the other majors ratified their last contracts. And as someone else pointed out, our pilots do have industry LEADING pay, not flying pax. It’s our turn for a new industry leading contract. Instead of trying to prove some convoluted idea that dispatching pax is somehow more important and deserves higher pay, why don’t you remember that we’ve been a leader until now and support us on getting a contract we deserve. It’s to your benefit as well.


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[Kev]

At this point, I'd just like to submit that if one wants to in any way diminish the responsibilities and associated compensation of a UPS (or FedEx) dispatcher versus a major passenger carrier, it would be worth considering the quality of life that most of their work force has by working much less desirable shifts.

For that reason alone, it is entirely unacceptable for a mediation to put UPS on equal footing with the bottom of the top tier of passenger carriers at the time of a contract renegotiation. Company labor lawyers can crunch numbers all they want, but unionized labor has that as an upper hand in negotiations.

IPA muscled them the same way in their negotiations two contracts back.

UPS' probable response? Hey bub, you should be happy you have a job. You came to work here. You knew the quality of life. Deal with it. We don't owe you anything.

 

[Socks and sandals]

You guys are making great points, points I hadn’t considered. Just so we’re all clear it’s ok to not know stuff. This is a Forum. I can accept that each operation has a separate set of challenges. Which is why I say our jobs are not 100% the same. 85-90% is pretty close, but they’re still not the same. How often does your major hub (let alone the possibility for 3-4 hubs to tank at once) go into a severe IROP with ground stops and GDPs that wrecks a days operation? We have the same ticket and probably the same values when it comes to our work. Our companies do completely different things. That makes our jobs a bit different. Now if you guys are making $16/hr that’d be a bit ridiculous and I’d agree even a pension doesn’t make up for that. As far as industry, I don’t see why not compare yourselves to FedEx, Atlas, Polar, Kalitta whoever flys boxes with almost comparable complexity.

Ladies and gentlemen, feast your eyes on the prime example of "I don't have it, so you shouldn't either". I don't even work for UPS and this kind of garbage pisses my off beyond belief. First, look at what the pilots at UPS make. They have absolutely make industry standard at least, but actually had the industry leading during the downturn. To say that the dispatchers at UPS who have had industry leading contracts in the past don't deserve industry leading again while in times of record profits, makes you ignorant at the very best. Telling people to "look for a mainline job" is ridiculous. So so ridiculous. UPS Dispatchers deserve their fair share of the pie, just like every other dispatcher for every other airline.
If you want to troll around and talk down to people who are trying to better their situation you should troll somewhere else. No one wants to hear your misinformed anti labor opinions. And yes, UPS does feel it when airport weather tanks, just like every other airline. With a comment like that I'm surprised you are even a dispatcher.
With the complexity of the airline itself, add in the fact that UPS dispatchers go through some of the most rigorous and difficult training in the industry, then yes, they deserve industry standard at the very least. To further complicate it, though, UPS has a different model that if anything makes it more complex that the scheduled passenger airline.
Support your colleagues, don't tear them down! And in regards to you being paid too little, that's what unions are for! Regional dispatchers by no means get paid their worth.

 

[4EngineETOPS]

Can boxes do this?

No but they can do this, this, and this.

Oh yeah, and this.

 

[Kev]

No but they can do this, this, and this.

Oh yeah, and this.

 

[Altimeter]

Just to clear the air I'm not some holier than thou mainline monster. If I was coming from a place of feelings I would want anyone with a green ticket exercising Operational Control to be making $100k+ a year. That's just not the world in which we live. Also, I'm not against you UPS guys getting paid, it is better for all of us. This is a place for discussion and I don't think that I'm just being the devil's advocate for the sake of being controversial. I'm a pragmatist and think there are points of contention that might be overlooked just going in cups of kool-aid full.

1. "Industry" - There is no standard of what constitutes a "Mainline" Carrier. We all probably have definitions in our head and we would probably agree for the most part. So for our purposes, what qualifies a mainline dispatch office? Is it aircraft type? Aircraft payload capabilities? Area of operation? Fleet size? Payscale? The number of dispatchers on payroll? Company Profits, or a whole other host of parameters?

I make that point because SkyWest has taken XJTs old place as a Super Regional, they check off a lot of the same boxes as a "Mainline" Office, but are nowhere near the pay. Southwest ticks all the boxes but the area of operation. UPS/Fed Ex, most every box but fleet count, and probably number of dispatchers. That is all being taken into consideration without, pax vs boxes.

2. "Leading Contract" - When a leading contract is brought up do you just mean the number at Top of Scale? The pension thing is a pretty big deal, I am admittedly no expert, but if we all live very long lives like I hope, a good 401k match doesn't contend with a funded pension for, hopefully, 20 - 30 years. Not even being supplemented by profit sharing will it be close. Then we have to consider the quality of life language such as workload, schedule, pay overrides, vacation, commuting, etc.

All things being considered, I have literally no clue about UPS/Fed Ex payscale or workload, Is it really just a measuring contest about who has the higher number? It has been like 8 years or so since you last contract, right? So absolutely the pay scale has to be refreshed, but WITH a pension what top of scale number makes it "Industry" leading? Would your group give up a pension to top out at $160-$170k/ year? Or if not giving up a pension, then what quality of life language would or could be sacrificed?

I have the utmost respect for everyone that exercises Operational Control, we have great jobs that come with great and serious responsibility. Aside from the regionals and a few LCCs (another point of contention) we are paid very well and have great work rules. There is always room for improvement and sometimes the number at Top of Scale isn't whats best. When we talk about what we "deserve" let us not forget great people who get stuck at the regional level their entire career. Coming from a regional operation, I know and respect the grind of low wages, high workload, and scarce resources. More power to fighting the man, but a high-level overview of the combination of pay, workload/rules, and benefits is what makes a contract leading, not just the Top of Scale number.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Please explain this word to those of us younger than 50.

The funny thing is that they are not always as great as they sound. If they put that same money into a broader index it would usually do better for the employee.

 

[Atlanta]

All I see on here are the feelings of dispatchers. Businesses don’t care what you believe feel you deserve. That’s not the world works. You will be paid what you are worth to that company at a given time! I don’t care what your airline flies.. what value do you provide to them and how much is it worth for them to keep you. That’s all that matters.
Some of you need to wake up and understand it’s business that’s it!
I don’t know what UPS dispatcher are worth to the company but it seems more important to show them your value economically instead of screaming like a child that you want more because Delta gets more!

 

[CPZ9900]

The sense of entitlement is real.

 

[Roger Roger]

All I see on here are the feelings of dispatchers. Businesses don’t care what you believe feel you deserve. That’s not the world works. You will be paid what you are worth to that company at a given time! I don’t care what your airline flies.. what value do you provide to them and how much is it worth for them to keep you. That’s all that matters.
Some of you need to wake up and understand it’s business that’s it!
I don’t know what UPS dispatcher are worth to the company but it seems more important to show them your value economically instead of screaming like a child that you want more because Delta gets more!

No, you’re paid what you can negotiate. If you were paid what you were worth, then ramp rats would be making a lot more and a lot of empty suits with “director of” titles would be making less.