The value of ramp work in a pilot career

[Victor Squawk]

What is the value of line service / ramp work, at the airlines, in gaining experience or finding opportunities for a career in aviation, especially in terms of becoming a part 121 pilot?

Subquestion, does it make a difference which airline you service?

 

[trafficinsight]

The value of ramp work is the paycheck and the experience of being the one out in the rain making things happen so later on when you're in the warm and dry you can think back on that and remember the rainy days and heat and the wind and noise and heavy bags and smelly lavs.

No, it doesn't matter who.

 

[Victor Squawk]

The value of ramp work is the paycheck and the experience of being the one out in the rain making things happen so later on when you're in the warm and dry you can think back on that and remember the rainy days and heat and the wind and noise and heavy bags and smelly lavs.

No, it doesn't matter who.

I get that, but someone who can get by without that experience and work at the airlines as a pilot won't understand. Yes, there is value in the work, especially for a person's character and life appreciation.

But im asking about how it practically contributes to becoming an airline pilot, in terms of actually becoming one.

 

[trafficinsight]

Iunno... I knew how to hook up the ground air and the lav and water and power when I needed to, and i could run the CRJ fuel panel like a mofo I guess. Do you need to know all that? No.

I dunno man, who cares who gives a swut.

 

[USMCmech]

But I'm asking about how it practically contributes to becoming an airline pilot, in terms of actually becoming one.

It really doesn't.

Beyond building character, work ethic, and having some good stories at an interview, working as a ramper does nothing for you as an aspiring airline pilot. Many of us have done our share of work on the ground side, fueling airplanes, throwing bags, turning wrenches, ect. But at the end of the day it is just one of many entry level jobs that you can work while you learn to fly.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I never did it, but I’d say it helps you build empathy for the hardest working people in this industry.

Story time:

Was flying with an ass of a captain. On the GSP turn with an inoperative APU the captain tells me that I should go down and “supervise” them hooking up the huffer. I protest, he demands it.

I go down, tell them I think they’re doing a fantastic job, that I don’t even know how to tell if they’re doing it incorrectly, and that the captain said I should come down here.

I guarantee that captain hasn’t had a difficult job in his life.

 

[knot4u]

Go work at the FBO servicing everything but the airlines. Your networking horizons will broaden hugely.

 

[///AMG]

In my short career thus far in the airlines, I have found a nearly direct parallel between the professional relationship I have with FA's, CSA's, and ground personnel, and the one I had in the Navy with our Sailors. All are underpaid for what we ask them to do, and generally get less appreciation and recognition for doing the really hard work than they should. So from that perspective, I think having some life experience being on the other side of that door, or in the cargo bays slinging bags, would pay dividends towards being a respectful and encouraging presence in the future as a pilot. Nowadays when things get stressful or there is a misunderstanding of some sort, I think back to some of the mistakes I made as a junior aviator and mil officer (even the best ones have bad days, not saying I was the best of course), woosa for a moment, and try to think of how I can be a better person this time around. We all have bad days, or get caught up in the heat of the moment, but the lesson you can learn in this capacity, is how permanently you can hurt someone when you think you are just (and even justifiably) pissed at a situation. Your interaction becomes personal, even if you didn't intend it to be. When you are in a leadership/management of people position, it is almost never about being "right". It is about adapting your response, and encouraging people, as well as communicating the how's and why's of what you are asking people to do. That's the education you can get, directly related to your future.

Now will this job further your progress towards becoming a professional pilot in a technical or tangible sense? No, probably not. Though it will pay some bills of course.

 

[ChasenSFO]

I can tell you that working customer service, ramp, cargo, ramp tower, operations, ect at both huge hubs and outstations has for sure really given me the big picture. Airlines are very complex, a lot goes on operationally that one can't possibly have a great understanding of without actually doing it all. It also has given me a point of reference for what all these departments go thru, how to help them out, what not to do, how to find loopholes and get what you want\need out of situations, and what is overall most efficient beyond whatever job you do individually. Not to mention that if you love airplanes and traveling, those jobs are mostly awesome.

Once you become a captain and take on all the responsibility that comes with it, I think anything you learn in the airline world by doing it 40 hours per week prior to that will help with the non-airmen decision-making that comes with the gig. When to trust people, when not to, when to put up a fight with CS/ramp because they are fully capable of doing what you need and when to pump the brakes and accept the policies aren't realistically going to be followed, ect. Can't really teach those things, they come with experience. And at the 121 level, especially from the left seat, it'd be hard to understate how many nuances one must become familiar with. I mean, if you care about the "flight" and not just doing your job, anyway.

What I'm surprised no one here has mentioned is that there are plenty of airlines who say if you leave in good standing and come back for a pilot job that you can keep your old employee number (which will usually get you 1st pick in class as to domiciles and types) and some airlines also say they'll most likely grant you an interview if you used to work there and meet pilot mins. When I was at SkyWest well before the hiring boom days, all my coworkers who got their ratings and went back to fly there (even if it was a decade later) were hired during periods of time where the advice was "say yes to whoever hires you first and go" and interviews were far from guaranteed. I've heard several guys at JSX complain that it is hard to get on at United straight from there, but both JSX guys I knew who were both former UA SFO employees did go straight from JSX to UA. So if you have an interest in flying at a company one day, I absolutely disagree that working for that company previously does not help you at least a tiny bit in getting an interview, if not hired.

 

[Sculprit]

I would say, if its a mean to your goal of becoming a pilot and its the only way of obtaining that goal than absolutely! I like many others worked in various positions in the airline industry including the ramp prior to becoming an airline pilot. The perspective it gave me from being in those positions, the knowledge I gained of the overall operation of an airline...or air line and the connections I made throughout my several years in these positions was invaluable. For a chump like me that did not have a traditional 4 year degree, sitting in the interview room of 4 of the 5 major US Carriers and having these stories to tell from my non traditional path, I believe really did help me in getting CJOs.

If you have the means of obtaining your ratings in a rapid manner, than dont worry about the above and when you find time in-between getting hours, network your ass (you can totes say ass here) off at an Aviation Conferences near you.

Again this is just my opinion and what worked for me.

It really doesn't.

Beyond building character, work ethic, and having some good stories at an interview, working as a ramper does nothing for you as an aspiring airline pilot. Many of us have done our share of work on the ground side, fueling airplanes, throwing bags, turning wrenches, ect. But at the end of the day it is just one of many entry level jobs that you can work while you learn to fly.

Mehh. While I do not disagree with you, what it does give you is perspective. Perspective one would not have unless they were in that position.

I never did it, but I’d say it helps you build empathy for the hardest working people in this industry.

Story time:

Was flying with an ass of a captain. On the GSP turn with an inoperative APU the captain tells me that I should go down and “supervise” them hooking up the huffer. I protest, he demands it.

I go down, tell them I think they’re doing a fantastic job, that I don’t even know how to tell if they’re doing it incorrectly, and that the captain said I should come down here.

I guarantee that captain hasn’t had a difficult job in his life.

Very true.

Go work at the FBO servicing everything but the airlines. Your networking horizons will broaden hugely.

Agreed. In my several years in positions outside of the flight deck I had the opportunity to meet many folks. Most of those folks were people willing to help and they did help get me to where I wanted to be.

 

[Sculprit]

I got to take a moment to hijack this thread and mention that @ChasenSFO got me my first start in this industry. There I was a 18 year old lad...saw Chasen's spotting pics here on JC and DM'ed him. A few days later he got me ramp access with him and his sup at SFO to drive around and take pics of AIRPLANES!! A few months later I moved to Los Angeles and he got me a job with SkyWest on the ramp and the rest is history.

What I'm surprised no one here has mentioned is that there are plenty of airlines who say if you leave in good standing and come back for a pilot job that you can keep your old employee number (which will usually get you 1st pick in class as to domiciles and types) and some airlines also say they'll most likely grant you an interview if you used to work there and meet pilot mins.

THIS!!! My time working the ramp and than various other positions at OO gave me the ability to take a LOA with the company to pursue my ratings. When I came back my company seniority remained intact which allowed me to be number one in my training class. First to bid on sim slots, domiciles and best of all my flight benefits my 401k and my company bonuses were all based on my initial hire date several years prior.

 

[JDean3204]

I was a line shack guy then an Avionics tech for five years in the Navy. Also worked the ramp at my first airline, gate and ticket counter too. It definitely makes me more appreciative of the work all others do to get us out of the gate. When I was enlisted, there were a few officers that were dikz, I took note of that on how not to be. One was such an arse, I promised myself if I ever cross paths with him I’d probably let him know about it, since I couldn’t when he “outranked” me, but he’s at United so hopefully I’ll never see him. I’ve also flown with captains who think all other positions in the airline are beneath them, it really aggravates me when a captain talks to a ramper like he’s disciplining his kid. They’re adults, treat them as such and usually the respect will work both ways. Yes even the ones that seem to not care, it’s probably because they’re making a tenth of what you make and are out in the elements wondering why they didn’t just decide to work for In n Out.

 

[///AMG]

it really aggravates me when a captain talks to a ramper like he’s disciplining his kid. They’re adults, treat them as such and usually the respect will work both ways.

Also the biggest mistake, IMO, we collectively made in the Navy. THAT isn't leadership. As a side note, I got to be the AV/ARM Divo during my first/JO tour. I love AT's

 

[JDean3204]

Also the biggest mistake, IMO, we collectively made in the Navy. THAT isn't leadership.

Yes I’d agree, but the chiefs yelled even louder and they were one of us just a few years prior haha

 

[///AMG]

Yes I’d agree, but the chiefs yelled even louder and they were one of us just a few years prior haha

I have very complicated thoughts and emotions regarding chiefs. Suffice to say that some are amazing, but they collectively don't live up to their historical reputation that we are all taught from day 1. I'm sure many would say the same about O's, at least in terms of us all not being great.

 

[SteveC]

Also the biggest mistake, IMO, we collectively made in the Navy. THAT isn't leadership. As a side note, I got to be the AV/ARM Divo during my first/JO tour. I love AT's

I really wanted to like/love that post, but I have zero comprehension of the third/fourth sentences...

 

[JDean3204]

I think it parallels the civilian world pretty well, some were born for the title they hold and do a phenomenal job. Others… not so much, even though they seem to think so.

 

[JDean3204]

Also the biggest mistake, IMO, we collectively made in the Navy. THAT isn't leadership. As a side note, I got to be the AV/ARM Divo during my first/JO tour. I love AT's

I talk to my former Div-O on a monthly basis. He’s a CA at Delta now and has been a great mentor even far removed from the days we had comsec meetings in Djibouti

He is one of three Navy pilots that really opened my mind up to making this career viable.

Lesson I took from them was, if you’re in a leadership position, don’t use it to show others you’re a leader, rather show them your job as a leader is to turn them into a better leader than you could ever be.

 

[///AMG]

I really wanted to like/love that post, but I have zero comprehension of the third/fourth sentences...

AV/ARM Divo = Avionics and Armament Division Officer. I "ran" Ordnance, Avionics Tech and Aviation Electricians Mates shops in that job. Just don't tell my chiefs or the gunner (the actual ordnance officer) that I said that. They actually ran stuff, I just signed the paperwork, and tried to give them what they wanted. I didn't know **** about anything in hindsight, it is almost comical. It's a job for a mid-first tour Navy LT/O-3/Junior Officer (JO), as are the other division officer jobs in squadron maintenance (Aircraft Division, Line Division, and a couple others less commonly filled by aviators).

AT = the navy rate of Avionics Technician. We have this weird system of not only having a rank for our sailors (i.e. "Petty Officer First Class", aka an E-6), but also a job descriptive name, in that case AT1. So unlike the Marines, Army, or Air Force, where it would be normal to say "Hey Staff Sergeant", in the Navy it would be pretty weird and formal to say "Hey Petty Officer First Class Smith". You'd say "Hey AT1". The rate is also the designator that defines what they do for a job, just like an MOS in the Army or USMC, or whatever the USAF calls the same.

 

[phill1174]

It’s valuable in a sense of understanding what the other work group deals with. Is it necessary, no. When I hear some of the things that come out of my colleagues mouths I almost wish it was mandatory to work as a ramper or customer service. I’ve heard rampers called thugs, lazy, etc meanwhile the person doing the name calling is sitting with the air gasper pointing at them, rambling about a boat or airplane purchase and will be making $400\hr once the wheels start moving.