Go around.
Southwest 345 Transcript from LGA
- Thread starter Soul Brotha'
- Start date
Go around.
nagylyk
Well-Known Member
Without question I agree. Fixed it.
B767
Well-Known Member
For sure. Never heard of anyone losing a job for a go around. And, if I'm not mistaken, we get paid by the minute.
Not that I'm implying one botches every approach to go around just to make a little extra cash.
A
Adler
Guest
***Paid by the mile.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Just to add to that, the "roughness" that people often complain about comes from three things. First, on a descent, if the thrust levers come back quickly and the engines rapidly unspool, the plane (depending on the type) can make a pretty rapid nose over movement in order to hold the bugged airspeed. On climbout, the reverse can happen. If you bug a much slower speed and then currently being flown or rapidly apply power and then command the speed on pitch altitude change, the plane may make a large nose up movement. Secondly, (and related to the first issue) if the plane overcompensates in the amount of pitch it needs to hold a speed (and they often do) it will then rapidly have to reverse the pitch in order to hold on to the speed so it doesn't get too slow to too fast. Some planes doe this more than others. The CRJ was terrible, especially up high and would oscillate back and forth all the time. The 717 tends to hold the pitch and just accept large speed variations instead. And third, if the headwind/tailwind component changes as the plane climbs or descends, the amount of pitch required to hold a certain speed will need to vary which can lead to some oscillation.
I use the birdwing on the 717 any time I'm flying a non straight in visual approach. I think I'm the only person that does it though as most captains look at me like I'm crazy.
T-Gates
Well-Known Member
I miss FPA terribly. The gouge on the 170/190 was to put the top of the tail of the FPV on the horizon and it was a perfect 3* FPA. FPA makes hand flying a raw data visual a breeze. When I first started using it I was like "Get this thing out of here", 4 years later I didn't know how I ever flew without it.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
IMO, on Fifi the FPA "bird" is nothing but a distraction. I don't need a plane symbol on the attitude indicator to show me what the plane is doing. I'm looking outside at the runway, the PAPI, and inside at the airspeed. The only time our Co. requires FPA/bird usage is in the localizer approach on descent from the FAF to the MDA+50'.
T-Gates
Well-Known Member
I've never flown the Airbus, so I can't comment on its usefulness there, but on the E-Jet PFD you can't even deselect the FPV. Once you select a vertical mode after takeoff, it's there for good. The FD is even flight path based. It was explained to me by an Embraer test pilot that they designed it that way because they thought for sure that everyone would order the airplane with dual-HUD's, so they wanted the symbology to match on both the PFD and the HUD.
When you really think about it, a lot of the pitch/power flying we do is all in the effort to maintain a constant FPA. So it makes sense to me to have an indication of that on the PFD, and further to have a way to set FPA. Of course, FPA doesn't exactly fit every scenario, but in certain maneuvers, it is an incredibly useful tool.
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
JetBlue was extremely forward thinking with their dual HUD installation. It's a shame that more operators weren't that progressive.
Nick
Well-Known Member
I speak Embraer fluently, and I make great use of FPA as well. It's like manual VNAV.
There are often instances where FPA is better than VNAV in this particular airplane, too. Since our VNAV works a bit differently and flies the descent angle you tell it to (either the one you programmed in at the gate before push, or a manually entered angle for any particular fix), there are some scenarios where leaving it in true VNAV will do bad things.
Case in point, high pressure system with a barometer of, say 30.55. Cross a fix at 15,000 and 300kts or greater assigned speed.
This VNAV system does not compensate for the altimeter of 30.55. All the while, in class A airspace, it's on VNAV glidepath aimed at that fix at 15,000. Then at FL180, when 29.92 becomes 30.55, suddenly the airplane finds itself about 650 feet above the path, with only a couple miles to catch up because the fix is very near. Couple this with a high speed assignment, or a tailwind, or ice protection thrust, and we have had crews overspeed.
In this scenario, I'll arm VNAV when we get the crossing restriction so if we get busy I can't forget to start down, but as we approach the TOD, I flip to the next page on the MCDU and hit FPA on the guidance panel and sync up the descent angle to the keep us about 600 feet "low" on profile so that we're right on passing FL180. This description perhaps makes it sound more complicated than it is, but it's quite simple.
I thought this was a good example that demonstrates even with VNAV and hi-tech stuff up front in a fly-by-wire airplane, there are still plenty of times when it's time to give the glareshield a pat on the head and say "nice try but not quite" and intervene and do a pilot thing.
And I really do pat the glareshield and talk to it once in a while. Some JCers have probably even witnessed this. Can't destroy the automation's ego after it tried so hard to help . . .
Autothrust Blue
Speed Bugs, Surf, Sunshine
I fixed it for ya.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
That's because all of the approaches you shoot (with maybe the exception of the Canarsie into JFK) are straight in and you have a runway and PAPI to look at.
A
Adler
Guest
What is Fifi, and FPA?
amorris311
Well-Known Member
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
DCA river visual too. Now starting LGA so that has a few nice visuals too. Other than that yes life is pretty easy. I've had a few circle to lands (eg, Rwy 1R in SFO when approaching the 28s). The bird is just a superimposed image on the attitude indicator. Instead, I just use the attitude indicator along with the ND's wind vector. We are limited to VMC for circle-to-land so the runway/environment must remain in sight.
Fifi = A320
FPA = Flight Path Angle
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
The 'Bus is entirely different. To get the FPV bird, you have to push a button to take the airplane form "Heading - Vertical Speed" to "Track - FPA." As a result, it's usually only used on non-precision approach (as dictated by company FCOM) or on a visual landing.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
DC-8 had look over your shoulder for guidance mode. Old Skool....
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