Southwest 345 Transcript from LGA

[Nick]

they do got uh clouds in the area and a light wind. um if they don't
delay us again we're looking at about uh being forty five
minutes late uh into the gate. again we do apologize for the
delay and um we thank you for your patience. hope you
have a wonderful day.

Holy goodness.

I'm gonna have another caipirinha here in Florianopolis.

 

[DE727UPS]

We use VS in the 727 almost exclusively. Airspeed/Mach hold are terribly pitchy regardless of weight. Set the throttles, roll in the VS and keep your hand by the wheel.

Our newest to us plane only has a rocker knob for the pitch with no altitude capture. Thats about as basic as you can get and the same setup as all the sims we use.

The fear of a stall or overspeed means you weren't paying enough attention in the first place. It's amazing how spoiled we get with the automation.

With regards to the transcript, it seemed that neither pilot had a full grasp of what the plane was going to do.

Sounds like the -100's at UPS back in the day. We had a handful of -200's with altitude capture and thought that was really cool. I'd be much happier in a 727 than trying to figure out what this FMC thing is supposed to do again....

 

[skyw82]

Go around!

what if it's not an option?

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

what if it's not an option?

Then you've painted yourself into a corner already... There are very few places where going around isn't an option due to terrain. And as an industry we have a problem with reluctance to go-around.

In this case there certainly was NO reason to continue pushing a bad situation.

 

[Cptnchia]

what if it's not an option?

The only reason that would not be an option is if they were on fire, out of gas, zeros were sweeping in over the base perimeter on a strafing run, or a jihadi was launching MANPADs at them. Since the first two only apply to airline ops, a go around would have been the smart play.

 

[CFIscare]

If only John Wayne was the FO...

 

[skyw82]

The only reason that would not be an option is if they were on fire, out of gas, zeros were sweeping in over the base perimeter on a strafing run, or a jihadi was launching MANPADs at them. Since the first two only apply to airline ops, a go around would have been the smart play.

Then you've painted yourself into a corner already... There are very few places where going around isn't an option due to terrain. And as an industry we have a problem with reluctance to go-around.

In this case there certainly was NO reason to continue pushing a bad situation.

My statement was in jest. I was quoting something off another cvr tape that involved an unsafe approach to landing. Remember that mesa erj in roa?

 

[CFIscare]

My statement was in jest. I was quoting something off another cvr tape that involved an unsafe approach to landing. Remember that mesa erj in roa?

For those curious.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20011030X02159&ntsbno=NYC02LA013&akey=1

 

[Roger Roger]

It is just as sketchy in just about every plane I have flown too. Will happily command a stall and let go with a chirp giving you a warning within a whisker of a millisecond to do something... Or overspeed in descent. Or something else dufus I haven't thought of. I find the trim wheel does a far better job, and just arm ALT SEL. At least someone is theoretically paying attention at that point.

Hmm. I find vs to be my preferred mode for climbs and descents in the aircraft that has it. Our 'jo only has pitch and thats not nearly as nice for planning descents or tracking vnav. Of course one has to reduce rate of climb with altitude but if you can't handle doing that while George is flying you probably deserve to burn in a post autopilot induced stall fiery crash.

 

[BobDDuck]

For those curious.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20011030X02159&ntsbno=NYC02LA013&akey=1

What has always scared me about this story was that the FO taking the plane to CLT the next morning didn't see anything unusual AND, even after warned by the checkairman that there might have been a hard landing in it, the crew still didn't see anything odd (or didn't bother to go double check).

 

[derg]

what if it's not an option?

Well, do a rejected landing if you're past the missed approach point!

If conducting a safe "escape" to come back around try it again isn't an option, in a world of FOQA, you're already being scheduled for a visit to the "Big Brown Desk".

 

[gotWXdagain]

The only reason that would not be an option is if they were on fire, out of gas, zeros were sweeping in over the base perimeter on a strafing run, or a jihadi was launching MANPADs at them. Since the first two only apply to airline ops, a go around would have been the smart play.

I dunno about you but if I was dodging the second coming of Pearl Harbor trying to get into an airport, I think I'd be re-evaluating my mission and getting the hell out of there.

 

[Mike Wise]

So what makes the "smoothness" between FLCH & VS different from each other?

 

[derg]

So what makes the "smoothness" between FLCH & VS different from each other?

FLCH is largely "speed on pitch" for the most part. You want to climb/descend, it's full/idle thrust and the nose will pitch to maintain speed. Some airplanes have a "program" of sorts where it's a blend of "speed on pitch" rounding out the aggressiveness.

VS, in the most simple terms is a mode in which vertical speed is the utmost priority. It works well, is smooth and in many cases preferable, but will whip your black ass (sorry, I can only write in terms which I can relate with) if you use it incorrectly. If you command a 3000 fpm climb, it'll pitch for that and disregard airspeed. A mad dog in VS mode will gladly stall you in a climb or drive you through the red line in a descent. If you command a slight climb, the autothrust will edge forward a little to maintain speed and the reverse in a descent. BUT, you sure better be confident in what you're asking it to do.

We're largely arguing "technique" but on the internet, thanks to the way we roll politically, it's "A or B". I'm an "moderate" which means that I see the value AND the danger in both extremes.

Personally, at the risk of the Boeing and Douglas guys whipping my ass, I kiiiiiiiinda enjoy FPA (Flight Path Angle).

The big thing to remember is that autopilots are awesome! at doing exactly what you commanded it, right or wrong

AMARITE, @PeanuckleCRJ?

 

[Baronman]

For those curious.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20011030X02159&ntsbno=NYC02LA013&akey=1

I'm surprised they didn't break the plane in half. At 100 feet going to idle and putting both hands on the yoke in the ERJ is freakin dangerous. That thing without power drops. I think inexperience stinks up this one. Whether it be handling of the aircraft, unfamiliarity with go arounds (you can always do one) or having the intestinal fortitude to write up a hard landing.

 

[Baronman]

FLCH is largely "speed on pitch" for the most part. You want to climb/descend, it's full/idle thrust and the nose will pitch to maintain speed. Some airplanes have a "program" of sorts where it's a blend of "speed on pitch" rounding out the aggressiveness.

V

AMARITE, @PeanuckleCRJ?

Sounds like open climb/descent in L'Avion. Usually works pretty well.

 

[TrustMeI'maPilot]

Seems like a very weak pilot. The CVR transcript reads like a very awkward crew. You know the type, constantly talking about anything and everything because they're not socially comfortable with each other. She seemed way too concerned with the weather, plane crossing, etc... Mentioned in the interview she's a "HUD cripple". Seems to have a fundamental lack of knowledge on speeds since she mentioned numberous times in the interview they were on speed or REF +1 or +2. Then she took over at the threshold because she looked outside and they seemed "groundspeed fast".

My initial observations after skimming the CVR and interview documents. Worth what you paid for it.

 

[queeno]

God I thought that I was OCD ADD ADHD, but you guys take the cake................VS over FLCH/IAS for over 3 pages, what about the CAPT taken the aircraft at 50 feet !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! even I know that's NUTTSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

 

[nagylyk]

I feel like this will be (probably already is) an interview question...

You're the the captain. FO is all over the place on final/short final, what do you do?

Answer: Anthing but this....and by anything I mean I'd go around

 

[RRPower]

My company is really trying to hit us hard on not using V/S EVER! It's all because of the PSA double flame out and Pinnacle face plant in the dirt that caused it. It infuriates me because V/S works just fine and is totally safe as long as guys are willing to put down their USA Today's while using it. Anyone who F's up V/S mode has other problems like not paying attention and being a terrible airman.