Silver Airways Saab Lands At Wrong Airport

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Everyone screws up. The key to reducing those screw-ups is a just safety culture that seeks to find solutions rather than seeking retribution. Firing someone for non-intentional mistakes is not a just safety culture. It's a detriment to safety, and it's not acceptable.

 

[milleR]

Maybe this is the crux of the issue; everybody is pontificating on what "they" would do and what "they" would expect to happen to them in this kind of event. That fact is, in 121 there is a system involved in finding out how a mistake was made. I don't think there's a pilot on this planet that would say these guys didn't screw up, they did. But when it comes down to their jobs, it's a far more involved process when you work for an airline.

The culture side of it I bring up has more to do with the viewpoint certain people are bringing to this argument. It's easy to call for their heads when all you have is a news article to base your opinion on. Incident and accident investigation goes far deeper into an event than what's covered in a 250 word news blog. For a 91/135 guy it's pretty black and white; you screwed up, you get fired. In the 121 world it goes a lot deeper than that. Why did they screw up. What were the other factors in the incident. Where were they when it happened. Who was involved. All of these things go into making a decision, and the hopeful outcome is that everybody learns from it so it doesn't happen again.

I'm not saying they aren't responsible. As the pilots of the aircraft, they had the final authority and should be held accountable. It's just that the investigation process is different when you have a large machine that has to process these things.

 

[WacoFan]

Can we all agree that Jhugz is a skygod?

 

[AngelFuree]

But I admit that I'm pretty puzzled by the virulence of those who seem to think that failing to have pity or fellow-feeling for some dudes who pretty obviously screwed up in a huge way is worse than having done the screwing up.

Bingo. Exactly how I see this and wish I would have come up with these words myself.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Bingo. Exactly how I see this and wish I would have come up with these words myself.

Well, and I should append that I really do hope that there's something approximating a good reason that this happened. I hope the rest rules or automation, or CRM training, or whatever else are found to be at fault, and that the guys in the pointy end keep flying because they're FOUND to be perfectly good pilots who made some dumb errors (which, as ATN points out, we all do).

With that said: It's a pretty colossal mistake. This isn't forgetting to raise the flaps after takeoff. It's not even busting an altitude. It's not even busting an altitude out of Teterboro (ask me how I know about that one). They thought they were at one airport, and they were at another. I just can't feature why huggles should be tarred and feathered for thinking that this is kind of a big deal and then (wrongly, I think) failing to have any sympathy. You can learn sympathy, and I heartily predict that huggles will learn it after his first nail-biting screwup, which will happen, we can all be 100% assured. I think we should have sympathy for all pilots. Those who have screwed up bigtime, and those who will.

 

[Tommay85]

This is the first time I've seen a jhugz crucifiction. Given that these random outbursts didn't occur until he posted, it's clear to me that these exchanges have happened before and that there's some hate/grudging going on.

It was on page one where the first comment "I don't see how this mistake can be made" happened. A few others posted remarks about how they prevent it. Us wipper-snapper freight guys come in here and make similar comments and all hell breaks loose. It's fine, I don't mind debating or all out arguing. I don't grudge or judge.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I have nothing against Huggies. In fact, he and I agree on most things. But he does display a rather "nothing bad can happen to me" attitude that I find extremely dangerous. I think he would be well served to work in a highly structured crew environment as a copilot for a while.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

What's that saying? Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement?

If they didn't willfully chose to go land there, then firing them serves no point.

*a threat has been identified
*silver is taking reps to prevent repeat events
*these pilots will probably never make this mistake again.

What does firing them change? The employment status of 2 people. Use the event to change operational procedures at an airline, and rather than put two on the street, maybe you help 300 others avoid making the same mistake.

The story, the reason, the cause will best come from the horses mouth, and facing termination, those horses arn't talking.

 

[Tommay85]

I have nothing against Huggies. In fact, he and I agree on most things. But he does display a rather "nothing bad can happen to me" attitude that I find extremely dangerous. I think he would be well served to work in a highly structured crew environment as a copilot for a while.

Fair enough, I just didn't feel that that was something he was portraying in this particular thread. At least initially. jrh had the first post with this implication. I'm not attacking you jrh. Just stating what I observed.

 

[CEWLGUY]

I remember Colgan landed a SAAB at the wrong airport in Texas a few months ago. But then again, Northwest landed an Airbus at the airforce base north of RAP instead of the civilian field.

Not looking to pour fuel, but, I would just like to remind people that the airline in Skaning's avatar landed at the very same "wrong" airport in TX...Twice before! This is not meant to rile people up, just to show that that this kind of stuff happens.

I think the 91/135/121 debate is off course, I think points are valid, some not, but, we are all pilots, we've all made mistakes, it's probably best to wait for the facts before drawing lines in the sand.

 

[derg]

Alright folks, this isn't flightinfo.

If you think you're cool, someone who hasn't spoke up is way cooler.

If you think you're experienced, some have uniform shoes that are still wearable that predate your entire career.

Keep it lively, but civil.


Sent from my TRS-80

 

[deadstick]

When it comes to making mistakes in aviation, those that have and those that will.

The first time I heard that line it involved helicopter pilots and hemorroides.

In this case, though, you are exactly right. I'd like think a way of mitgating that risk is what we (usually) do here -- have mature discussions about this profession and share our experiences while learning from those of others.

 

[BE19Pilot]

Rumor has it a reception committee of local business and political leaders awaiting their arrival along with some company officials...

 

[BE19Pilot]

What's that saying? Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement?

Experience is only relevant in aviation if you survive to fly and fight another day...Otherwise, it is irrelevant.

 

[jrh]

Well at FLX, basically anything that could have been caught on pre-flight, on a checklist or flow that causes an incident/accident would get you fired immediately. Hopefully you're not at the outstation, because you'd then be finding your own way back home. ... Wrong or right, this is the environment jhugz, myself, and z987k work in and the mindset we're approaching this thread with.

Holy crap. I don't know how/why you guys put up with that sort of culture. It's very different in the airline world.

Follow up honest question now: Do you think this approach improves safety?

Because statistically, I don't think most freight companies have a better safety record than say, a small regional airline. I know this is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison because the mission and equipment are different, but it's something worth thinking about.

 

[jrh]

Fair enough, I just didn't feel that that was something he was portraying in this particular thread. At least initially. jrh had the first post with this implication. I'm not attacking you jrh. Just stating what I observed.

FWIW, when I said I didn't know how this type of mistake could be made, I meant it literally. I didn't mean to imply anything. I wasn't saying I'm immune to doing it, or the pilots should be fired. Just making a very literal observation of, "This doesn't make any sense. I can't figure out how it would happen."

 

[cmill]

Not all us young whipper. Snapper freight guys happen to agree with you... Anymore. 2000 hours ago I'd be calling for their jobs to, but I guess I've just gone soft.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[ClarkGriswold]

An FAA inspector once told me when talking to him about Colgans IAH incident, that as long as you do not try to take off without a release the worst thing you will get from them is an easy 709 type ride. Mistakes happen and they just want to see that it wont be a future problem. With that said I wouldnt be surprised if they were fired because it is Silver...The "new" Colgan. To clarify Seggy, I am referring to the old Colgan. Do not mean to discredit your work.

 

[Tommay85]

Holy crap. I don't know how/why you guys put up with that sort of culture. It's very different in the airline world.

Follow up honest question now: Do you think this approach improves safety?

Because statistically, I don't think most freight companies have a better safety record than say, a small regional airline. I know this is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison because the mission and equipment are different, but it's something worth thinking about.

Do I think this approach works? Well, it's all I know at this point, but it seems to work. Like I said, it's the more serious things that get you let go. The rest are just a really really uncomfortable phone conversation from what I hear. The specifics in that post you quoted MAY have been a little exaggerated. Honestly, you'd probably get one free pass with most things, but weather in particular is one thing our DO and CP can't stand people messing up or screwing around with. Thunderstorms specifically. Pop some rivets after blatantly pushing through a squall line, you're definitely getting let go. In that regard, I think the threat of getting fired for doing stupid things around storms DOES work. Thunderstorms aren't exactly mysterious or sneaky if you look at all the weather products and have a solid working knowledge base on weather theory.

From the FAA if you want to do some reading. I read through half of them. The majority are gear problems(in a 210??? NO WAY! haha) and bird strikes. Not many incidents/accidents in the Baron. Surprising, because in the early years they operated Barons just as much as 210s. BUT, the 210s were/are operated be guys with 500-1200 hours initially, so maybe a correlation can be drawn to that instead of the company itself. Interesting reading some of these though.

http://www.asias.faa.gov/portal/pls/portal/!PORTAL.wwa_app_module.accept

From the NBAA, freight indeed has many many many more accidents, but corporate aviation has a 60% less accident rate than the airlines. So, I'm not sure there's any hard data or statistics out there to argue which approach is truly best for safety. Unless you're aware of something out there. I'd be genuinely interested to read it. This is assuming that the majority of the corporate operators out there also use the "straighten up an fly right or you're fired" approach. I do know which one is more comfortable for the pilot that messes up though!
http://www.nbaa.org/ops/safety/stats/

 

[Tommay85]

An FAA inspector once told me when talking to him about Colgans IAH incident, that as long as you do not try to take off without a release the worst thing you will get from them is an easy 709 type ride. Mistakes happen and they just want to see that it wont be a future problem. With that said I wouldnt be surprised if they were fired because it is Silver...The "new" Colgan. To clarify Seggy, I am referring to the old Colgan. Do not mean to discredit your work.

Despite the heated exchanges earlier, this would be a perfectly fair consequence IMO.