Silver Airways Saab Lands At Wrong Airport

UAL747400 said:
Honestly, you'd probably get one free pass with most things, but weather in particular is one thing our DO and CP can't stand people messing up or screwing around with. Thunderstorms specifically. Pop some rivets after blatantly pushing through a squall line, you're definitely getting let go.
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Blatantly pushing through a squall line is not a mistake, it's a willful violation of SOP and a willfully reckless operation. It's not something that any of us can have happen to us, it's something that happens when you're willfully negligent. That is a very big difference. One of the key elements when deciding a course of action in a just safety culture is to determine whether the act was willful or not. No one willfully landed at a wrong airport. Someone seeing a thunderstorm squall line on a radar and choosing to fly through it anyway is a willful action. A just safety culture would handle the two things very differently.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Blatantly pushing through a squall line is not a mistake, it's a willful violation of SOP and a willfully reckless operation. It's not something that any of us can have happen to us, it's something that happens when you're willfully negligent. That is a very big difference. One of the key elements when deciding a course of action in a just safety culture is to determine whether the act was willful or not. No one willfully landed at a wrong airport. Someone seeing a thunderstorm squall line on a radar and choosing to fly through it anyway is a willful action. A just safety culture would handle the two things very differently.
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Actually us freight guys don't have that great of radar, if we have it at all. Holes close up. A couple days ago I dodged a cell only to find a bigger one behind it. Couldn't tell with my radar as the small dish will only tell so much. I don't have nexrad so I can't get the whole picture of what is happening. Make the wrong turn around a storm and ending up surrounded sucks. We don't have the benefit of altitude. We are stuck in the crap.
 
Maurus said:
Actually us freight guys don't have that great of radar, if we have it at all. Holes close up. A couple days ago I dodged a cell only to find a bigger one behind it. Couldn't tell with my radar as the small dish will only tell so much. I don't have nexrad so I can't get the whole picture of what is happening. Make the wrong turn around a storm and ending up surrounded sucks. We don't have the benefit of altitude. We are stuck in the crap.
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Jets don't always have the benefit of altitude either. :) In fact, climbing to "top" the weather can lead to high-altitude stalls if you're pushing the jet higher than it should be based on your weight.

But I feel your pain; I spent a good while flying 402s with crappy radars in that stuff. I might suggest reading some of the work done by Dave Gwinn about radar usage...really excellent material. My experience was that even the worst radars could at least paint what you didn't want to fly into, using a little knowledge of tilt/gain. I still use that knowledge from my 402 time to pick out areas that could be shadowing, and use a lot of Dave Gwinn's techniques as well.

Beyond that, there's no reason to push through if you can't keep yourself out of it. Either file a reroute or wait it out. Preaching to the choir I'm sure.
 
Maurus said:
Actually us freight guys don't have that great of radar, if we have it at all. Holes close up. A couple days ago I dodged a cell only to find a bigger one behind it. Couldn't tell with my radar as the small dish will only tell so much. I don't have nexrad so I can't get the whole picture of what is happening. Make the wrong turn around a storm and ending up surrounded sucks. We don't have the benefit of altitude. We are stuck in the crap.
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He said "blatantly push through a squall line." That doesn't sound like an accident, it sounds intentional. But I agree, if it is something that closes up, or the radar malfunctions, or whatever the case may be, and it's indeed non intentional, then my stance is always that a just safety culture will seek to find solutions rather than dish out punishment.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
He said "blatantly push through a squall line." That doesn't sound like an accident, it sounds intentional. But I agree, if it is something that closes up, or the radar malfunctions, or whatever the case may be, and it's indeed non intentional, then my stance is always that a just safety culture will seek to find solutions rather than dish out punishment.
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What do we know ATN_Pilot. We didn't have the great jhugz teach us.
 
Let me make sure I'm reading this correctly. A pilot who "pushes through" a squall line and incurs no damage should be punished, but a guy who lands at the wrong place shouldn't. *rubs eyes*
 
jrh said:
Holy crap. I don't know how/why you guys put up with that sort of culture. It's very different in the airline world.

Follow up honest question now: Do you think this approach improves safety?

Because statistically, I don't think most freight companies have a better safety record than say, a small regional airline. I know this is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison because the mission and equipment are different, but it's something worth thinking about.
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I don't think it improves safety at all because people end up trying to hide things. It does weed out idiots though.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Blatantly pushing through a squall line is not a mistake, it's a willful violation of SOP and a willfully reckless operation. It's not something that any of us can have happen to us, it's something that happens when you're willfully negligent. That is a very big difference. One of the key elements when deciding a course of action in a just safety culture is to determine whether the act was willful or not. No one willfully landed at a wrong airport. Someone seeing a thunderstorm squall line on a radar and choosing to fly through it anyway is a willful action. A just safety culture would handle the two things very differently.
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I know a guy at FLX that ironically did that exact thing and not get fired. We both looked at the radar, I told him I was going home and he said he was going to fly. Something about the 80 kt winds at 3000 scared me off. Anyway, saw him a couple of days later and told me they were doing a spar inspection because he creased the skin.

I've pulled my bonehead moves. You know something is wrong when you're the only plane on the ups ramp that came from a certain direction. I actually got chewed out for that one.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Blatantly pushing through a squall line is not a mistake, it's a willful violation of SOP and a willfully reckless operation. It's not something that any of us can have happen to us, it's something that happens when you're willfully negligent. That is a very big difference. One of the key elements when deciding a course of action in a just safety culture is to determine whether the act was willful or not. No one willfully landed at a wrong airport. Someone seeing a thunderstorm squall line on a radar and choosing to fly through it anyway is a willful action. A just safety culture would handle the two things very differently.
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YGTBFKM.

You guys are a joke.

Seggy
 
cmill said:
I know a guy at FLX that ironically did that exact thing and not get fired. We both looked at the radar, I told him I was going home and he said he was going to fly. Something about the 80 kt winds at 3000 scared me off. Anyway, saw him a couple of days later and told me they were doing a spar inspection because he creased the skin.

I've pulled my bonehead moves. You know something is wrong when you're the only plane on the ups ramp that came from a certain direction. I actually got chewed out for that one.
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Corey, for what it's worth, I'm very impressed with your attitude these days.
 
UAL747400 said:
I don't know. I'm hung up on the one fact we do know; that is that the airplane actually touched pavement where it wasn't supposed to. I just don't care about the "whys" behind their mistake. The most basic requirement for the flight is to go from A to B. They went to C this time because of at least one reason, they goofed. I just don't care about the "whys" behind their mistake I guess.
............
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What an extremely ignorant statement. I'm actually a little embarrassed for you. The "whys" have EVERYTHING to do with any accident/ incident.
 
Cruise said:
What an extremely ignorant statement. I'm actually a little embarrassed for you. The "whys" have EVERYTHING to do with any accident/ incident.
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I'm curious as to the why that justifies being lost operating under part 121... or really ever.
 
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