Silver Airways Saab Lands At Wrong Airport

UAL747400 said:
I REALLY haven't seen a single post in the entire thread that implies machoism. I haven't seen a single member use the words "I" or say "I would NEVER make that mistake". You're pulling way to many extra things out of some of these posts. Please take what's ACTUALLY written at face value, sarcasm aside. I don't know how I'm coming across to you, but I assure you there's no anger or frustration in my exchanges with you. Maybe there was a little bit yesterday, but I'm perfectly fine with agreeing to disagree. Maybe you just HATE my sig? Hint: scroll down :)
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There is nothing to "agree to disagree" on. Those saying these guys should be outright fired without the facts are just plain wrong.
 
Is this a difference in freight vs. airline culture? Honest question.

I mainly say this because I know jhugz and UAL are freight guys, while most of the "don't fire them" crowd are airline guys.

I've never worked for a freight operator, but rumors I've heard indicate they're easier to get fired from than airlines. Not sure if it's true or not, but it's what I've heard.
 
Dugie8 said:
Why does there have to be "consequences"? That may seem like a silly question but think about it for a minute. I would wager that most of us don't wake up in the morning intending to do anything stupid or dangerous. I would wager again that most of us just want to do our jobs, to the best of our current abilities and go home.

Making a mistake isn't always a reason to discipline the individual(s). Again, another wager, when most of us make a mistake, the self discipline we apply to ourselves is often worse and longer lasting than any form of "consequences" we get from our employer; thus making any form of real punishment from "the boss" less than redundant and maybe counter productive.

There are mistakes and there is recklessness. The two aren't the same.
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Well, I guess I just don't see touching tires to pavement where they're not supposed to be as "well shucks Jim, we're not where we're supposed to be". I would expect at least a suspension while it's investigated, but that's just me I guess. Obviously it wasn't intentional. Again, in case this is twisted around. I'm not saying I'm incapable of making the same mistake. This, to me, is just a bit more serious than busting an altitude, lining up to the wrong runway, leaving a door unlatched, ect... The fact that this didn't result in a crash was one good thing that was in their cards this particular night. Different time and place, and maybe it'd be different. That's about the only reason I feel compelled to side with having consequences.
 
"IN THE AGE of the so-called zero-defect military, senior officers increasingly recognize that pursuing perfection in officer performance hurts the military services. In an address to the U.S. Army Command and General Staff Officer’s Course in 2001, Commandant of the Marine Corps General James L. Jones, Jr., stated, “Today, standards are incredibly high. . . . I never would have made it past major if I had been held to the same standard as you.”2 Vice Chief of Staff of the Army General John M. Keane recently sent a letter to senior command- ers in the field concerning junior officer retention, which said in part, “We hear from . . . captains that they are frustrated by what they perceive as a ‘zero- defect’ mentality and a resulting culture of micro- management. They came into the Army to lead soldiers and to willingly shoulder the immense responsibility that goes with command; however, they tell us that this responsibility has been taken away from them by leaders more concerned with making sure nothing goes wrong on their watch.”"

....

"One hopes that the military can cure the zero-de- fect cancer. The services have taken a step in the right direction by changing their evaluation systems to protect new junior officers from a zero-defect environment. Senior leaders are aware of the zero- defect mentality and are teaching officers to prevent it through lenience and tolerance. Given a choice of tolerance versus zero defects, tolerance must win because one day one of us could be supervising the next Nimitz, Lejeune, Patton, or Arnold."


http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/milreview/steele_claire.pdf

Parallels?
 
jrh said:
Is this a difference in freight vs. airline culture? Honest question.

I mainly say this because I know jhugz and UAL are freight guys, while most of the "don't fire them" crowd are airline guys.

I've never worked for a freight operator, but rumors I've heard indicate they're easier to get fired from than airlines. Not sure if it's true or not, but it's what I've heard.
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Well at FLX, basically anything that could have been caught on pre-flight, on a checklist or flow that causes an incident/accident would get you fired immediately. Hopefully you're not at the outstation, because you'd then be finding your own way back home. Other things like leaving cargo behind, you'd get a warning, maybe two, then you're gone. Diverting around weather, delaying for weather, leaving late but arriving on time are some things that wouldn't get you in trouble at all. The thing with somewhere like FLX is it's DIRT CHEAP to train someone and it is entry level with hundreds of resumes on file at any given time. Somewhere like Ameriflight, they'd let you go just to make a point. Wrong or right, this is the environment jhugz, myself, and z987k work in and the mindset we're approaching this thread with.
 
UAL747400 said:
That being said, at the very least they should be violated by the FAA, HARD.
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So they should be violated HARD then? What will that accomplish? Doubt they would make the same mistake again.
 
Seggy said:
Well UPS and FedEx have awesome safety cultures.

What we have here is a lot of people in this thread not listening.
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Not to flame, but what qualifies you as the expert on this subject?

jrh I think it has to do with union protection. I think the company would dump them if the could. The union doesn't allow it. I'd love to hear Seggys opinion on this topic.
 
Probably not too long ago I would have been a lot less understanding about something like this,god knows I've made my share of crappy ass 121 pilot remarks in the past.

I've had some very close calls and have been extremely humbled, and truthfully could have lost my job at least once back in new Orleans. If there was one thing I learned from that type of flying it's that when you are flying at ragged edge of the envelope, In hostile conditions, or even just single pilot ifr, it doesn't make you any better. It just means that when you fail you will fail spectacularly to the point that landing at a wrong airport is just kind of funny.

Maybe that's why I don't think these guys really screwed up that bad, or deserve to get fired for it. I've seen guys with more time than 90 percent of people on this board total tail draggers by ground looping them, flip over sea planes, sink planes, and generally make complete asses of themselves. Thankfully, I've never done any of that, (except making an ass out of myself) but does that make me better than any of these people? Hell no. It just means that I haven't had 19000 hours to become complacement and pull a bush league stunt.

God forbid that anyone makes a mistake, doesn't hurt anyone, AND still keeps the plane in one piece.

Sorry for the terrible grammar iPad is a bitch.
 
Hacker15e

What will happen to the guys that landed at the wrong airport a couple weeks ago. Just trying to get a comparison between the two. Military and Airlines.
 
jhugz said:
Not to flame, but what qualifies you as the expert on this subject?

jrh I think it has to do with union protection. I think the company would dump them if the could. The union doesn't allow it. I'd love to hear Seggys opinion on this topic.
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Fair question.

My involvement with the 3407 Accident were we looked very heavily at safety culture, programs, proactive approaches to safety, etc. My time after the investigation getting ASAP, FOQA, LOSA, FRB, FRMP, etc on property and forcing the company into a just safety culture. And then my work in investigating Colgans wrong airport landing under a just safety culture.
 
Seggy said:
Huh?
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Your point is the mistake would never be duplicated. Yet your airline continued to employee a pilot that eventually led to a boatload of people dead in Buffalo. This pilot continued to make mistakes after mistakes in he training environment yet he was kept on property and given one to many chances.
 
jhugz said:
Your point is the mistake would never be duplicated. Yet your airline continued to employee a pilot that eventually led to a boatload of people dead in Buffalo. This pilot continued to make mistakes after mistakes in he training environment yet he was kept on property and given one to many chances.
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Yep, you have no idea what a just safety culture is. The company didn't have proper mentor, training, hiring, safety programs in place to spot these issues before they occur.
 
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