Purple TA

[Richman]

Because it isn't. You got paid while you worked at the company. You were paid for services rendered. This idea that you could then stop working, but still have the company support you til the day you die sounds... untenable. That could be 20+ yrs of care needed for someone bringing in 0 revenue.

Hold the phone there, professor.

When you hired on with a company, you did so with an agreement that the Company compensate you with pay and benefits. It takes two to tango.

If the company agrees to fund a defined benefit plan, then that becomes part of your overall compensation package during your time of employment.

The company is not taking care of a person who provides zero revenue. The fund is providing deferred compensation calculated at the agreed value.

In normal times, which we are slowly creeping back to, a well managed DB plan in times of modest market returns and historically average interest rates is actually less expensive than a DC plan that pays less to the employee.

I love it when youngster “investors” lose their minds when it turns out that money actually costs something to use.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I get it. I’m not faulting the employee.


When I was hired at my engineering firm, I was under a pension plan. Less than 6 months later it was taken away, I got a very small “settlement” and then going forward a 401K plan with the company putting in 3% DC, and then a 1-for-1 match to 5% of my money.


I still remember more senior people at the company were livid.



I get it - it was a benefit. One signed up for the job, had the benefit, counted on it being there, and then it’s taken away. Yeah, I’d be livid too.

 

[BobDDuck]

When I was hired at my engineering firm, I was under a pension plan. Less than 6 months later it was taken away, I got a very small “settlement” and then going forward a 401K plan...

Were you unionized?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Were you unionized?

No

 

[BobDDuck]

No

Then your story has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation.

 

[///AMG]

Then your story has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation.

To be fair, id say it has to do with the larger situation in our country with respect to retirement security. But that is probably another discussion.

 

[BobDDuck]

To be fair, id say it has to do with the larger situation in our country with respect to retirement security. But that is probably another discussion.

Sure does suck that all those crazy conservatives have been union busting for the past 50 years huh?

It is another discussion, but there is a reason that unionization has its benefits. Outside of court sanctioned bankruptcy, a company can't just decide one day to replace a DB and a DC.

 

[///AMG]

Sure does suck that all those crazy conservatives have been union busting for the past 50 years huh?

It is another discussion, but there is a reason that unionization has its benefits. Outside of court sanctioned bankruptcy, a company can't just decide one day to replace a DB and a DC.

100%

I think we can probably mostly all agree, at least those of us in unionized employment, that it makes a big difference.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

My heart goes out to those who lost their pensions.


That said, history is also a rough teacher. How many airlines still exist compared to 30-40 yrs ago?

If I was starting out again at the airlines at 22-23, and given an option of a pension or a 401K with 16-17% DC, I'd take the 401K and comfortably know that even if my company went belly up, I'd have my retirement savings still available, fully vested, and transported to my next airline.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

if someone is blabbing on guard, I just de-select. Otherwise if I'm at the edge of reception of his radio and I proudly announce "YOWER ON GARRRRD" well, I'm broadcasting another 200-250 mile radius circle. So potentially thousands of miles of unnecessary radio chatter starts and there's a good chance someone you're not hearing well is going to get drown-out by someone else's "YOWER ON GAAAAAARD" and impede potentially critical communication.

"SO ARE YOUUUUUUU"

 

[///AMG]

My heart goes out to those who lost their pensions.


That said, history is also a rough teacher. How many airlines still exist compared to 30-40 yrs ago?

If I was starting out again at the airlines at 22-23, and given an option of a pension or a 401K with 16-17% DC, I'd take the 401K and comfortably know that even if my company went belly up, I'd have my retirement savings still available, fully vested, and transported to my next airline.

Agree, but that is with the benefit of what we know today.

 

[Richman]

To be fair, id say it has to do with the larger situation in our country with respect to retirement security. But that is probably another discussion.

IMHO, there’s a fair amount of greed involved. Money sitting in a pension fund does nothing to help the money changers.

401ks were never meant as a retirement solution. They were a tax dodge. Same as mortgages, but somehow they became monetized and became a plaything, and it nearly burned the entire world down.

And I know just the types. “I’m majoring in business” dudebros that slid through as a legacy with a C+ and somehow took off with your car keys one night for a beer run and left you with nacho crumbs, empty cans and a parking ticket. When you bitched about it, everyone said “nah, he’s a good guy”.

 

[Hacker15e]

The A Plan "gains" in this TA are just about its only redeeming factor. Significantly offsetting those gains for those currently on the seniority list, though, is that it creates a "Retirement B-Scale" at Purple for anyone hired after the signing date, which is despicable IMHO.

Everything else is either legitimately concessionary or lagging current industry standard set by Delta and AA (and hopefully to be followed by UA).

It will be very embarrassing to be part of this pilot group if we vote yes and, instead of pushing the bar higher, pull the pattern bargaining standard backward.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

To be fair, id say it has to do with the larger situation in our country with respect to retirement security. But that is probably another discussion.

I mean, "people of certain political persuasions outraged about decline of middle class they presided over through the evisceration of unions they agitated for and supported" is indeed a topic.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

401ks were never meant as a retirement solution. They were a tax dodge. Same as mortgages, but somehow they became monetized and became a plaything, and it nearly burned the entire world down.

Everyone read Empire of the Fund, please.

 

[GypsyPilot]

The A Plan "gains" in this TA are just about its only redeeming factor. Significantly offsetting those gains for those currently on the seniority list, though, is that it creates a "Retirement B-Scale" at Purple for anyone hired after the signing date, which is despicable IMHO.

Everything else is either legitimately concessionary or lagging current industry standard set by Delta and AA (and hopefully to be followed by UA).

It will be very embarrassing to be part of this pilot group if we vote yes and, instead of pushing the bar higher, pull the pattern bargaining standard backward.

Thank goodness a large portion of the hiring group is younger and hired in the last few years.

I do not care if this puts the TA back a couple years. After the announcement of “Drive”, it’s time to fix some things.

 

[mikecweb]

If/when it gets voted down I expect the experts that have suddenly appeared to step up in a major way because the next two years will be a • show. Most will probably head to greener pastures. Those in the middle will have to pick up the mess and hope for 150k retro pay to make up for the losses in pay and fight hard for scope gains that the company can get around with belly freight and trucks. Can't wait.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The A Plan "gains" in this TA are just about its only redeeming factor. Significantly offsetting those gains for those currently on the seniority list, though, is that it creates a "Retirement B-Scale" at Purple for anyone hired after the signing date, which is despicable IMHO.

Everything else is either legitimately concessionary or lagging current industry standard set by Delta and AA (and hopefully to be followed by UA).

It will be very embarrassing to be part of this pilot group if we vote yes and, instead of pushing the bar higher, pull the pattern bargaining standard backward.

Similar thing at Eskimo. The top ~250 guys got to keep full pension, the other ~900ish were rebalanced guys, partial pension, partial 401K. And anyone hired 2010 or later was pure 401K.

It was voted away that way.

 

[Richman]

Everyone read Empire of the Fund, please.

There are going to be some sad pandas.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

If/when it gets voted down I expect the experts that have suddenly appeared to step up in a major way because the next two years will be a • show.

Yeah. I hope everyone's got some names in mind for re-staffing the union, 'cause that's sort of implied. The turmoil at a certain other airline is instructive on this topic, too, though it would seem that the change of leadership has been a VERY positive thing overall.

It just takes time and that sucks.