Purple TA

[GypsyPilot]

Stockholm Syndrome. Corporations have conditioned people that pensions are bad and that the company isn’t responsible for your retirement.

I want to keep my pension, but I understand the thought process for younger people wanting nothing to do with them.

There is a lot of faith required that your employer isn’t going to go bankrupt and/or disappear someday. I’m trying to fund my retirement so that we can at the very least lead an ok life if that were to happen.

 

[Richman]

Stockholm Syndrome. Corporations have conditioned people that pensions are bad and that the company isn’t responsible for your retirement.

This. This. A million times this.

 

[///AMG]

I’ve literally never heard guard jackassery in the SEA-ANC corridor. Sort of a weird dead zone for it I guess.

Earlier on before my scan of stupid early NG radios was tight, I called ops after landing several times. Realized before the third that I hadn't moved the switch to their freq from guard. The one time the guard keepers could have been helpful, they weren't.

FWIW im a big not-fan of guard BS. Maybe it is uniquely triggering, as it brings back terrible memories of some really critical moment in a ($$$$taxpayer funded) tactical training scenario that was train wrecked by "GIANT KILLER ON GUARD GIANT KILLER ON GUARD 1-2-3-3-2-1 GIANT KILLER OUT"........(10 seconds elapse) "GIANT KILLER ON GUARD GIANT KILLER ON GUARD 1-2-3-3-2-1 GIANT KILLER OUT". Can't smash the deselect button fast enough, as anger rises. Or the time an E-2 on the carrier flight deck didn't realize they had hot mic'd the approach freq we were using, as I was the very last man/tanker to come aboard on a very late/early am night recovery to a pitching deck. I am surprised that I didn't stroke out, but I was seeing red. I think it is the only time I have said f*** on the radio, as well as just about any and every other obscenity that overcame my mouth.

 

[MikeD]

I want to keep my pension, but I understand the thought process for younger people wanting nothing to do with them.

There is a lot of faith required that your employer isn’t going to go bankrupt and/or disappear someday. I’m trying to fund my retirement so that we can at the very least lead an ok life if that were to happen.

Employee Stock Option Programs are the best. Nothing could go wrong with those. Just ask UAL.

@A Life Aloft

 

[EIR]

I want to keep my pension, but I understand the thought process for younger people wanting nothing to do with them.

There is a lot of faith required that your employer isn’t going to go bankrupt and/or disappear someday. I’m trying to fund my retirement so that we can at the very least lead an ok life if that were to happen.

This! I chose my employer for many reasons, not just their pension plan. It's an extremely nice perk (if it lasts). My retirement is setup as if I don't have a pension. When it comes time to retire, the pension will be bonus fun tokens.

 

[Soku39]

This! I chose my employer for many reasons, not just their pension plan. It's an extremely nice perk (if it lasts). My retirement is setup as if I don't have a pension. When it comes time to retire, the pension will be bonus fun tokens.

I mean, same with my military pension.

 

[Roger Roger]

Earlier on before my scan of stupid early NG radios was tight, I called ops after landing several times. Realized before the third that I hadn't moved the switch to their freq from guard. The one time the guard keepers could have been helpful, they weren't.

FWIW im a big not-fan of guard BS. Maybe it is uniquely triggering, as it brings back terrible memories of some really critical moment in a ($$$$taxpayer funded) tactical training scenario that was train wrecked by "GIANT KILLER ON GUARD GIANT KILLER ON GUARD 1-2-3-3-2-1 GIANT KILLER OUT"........(10 seconds elapse) "GIANT KILLER ON GUARD GIANT KILLER ON GUARD 1-2-3-3-2-1 GIANT KILLER OUT". Can't smash the deselect button fast enough, as anger rises. Or the time an E-2 on the carrier flight deck didn't realize they had hot mic'd the approach freq we were using, as I was the very last man/tanker to come aboard on a very late/early am night recovery to a pitching deck. I am surprised that I didn't stroke out, but I was seeing red. I think it is the only time I have said f*** on the radio, as well as just about any and every other obscenity that overcame my mouth.

I have heard the occasional PA especially on SEA approach, but none of the gyyyyaaaarrrrrrdddd, meowing, or let’s go Brandon idiocy

 

[alaskadrifter]

I want to keep my pension, but I understand the thought process for younger people wanting nothing to do with them.

There is a lot of faith required that your employer isn’t going to go bankrupt and/or disappear someday. I’m trying to fund my retirement so that we can at the very least lead an ok life if that were to happen.

Having witnessed my dad’s pension get stolen it’s going to be a hard pass for me.

 

[thepotato232]

Stockholm Syndrome. Corporations have conditioned people that pensions are bad and that the company isn’t responsible for your retirement.

It's not Stockholm Syndrome to trace the history of American corporate governance in my lifetime to find that discharging obligations in bankruptcy has become an openly sought-after outcome for the executive class. It also isn't Stockholm Syndrome to see that established case history has put laborers with decades of pension contributions firmly at the bottom of the unsecured creditor list in bankruptcy cases - especially airline bankruptcies. The consequences of this cultural devolution came as a devastating shock to my parents when I was a young man, but I was at least afforded a chance to learn from their experience and plan my adult life accordingly.

...or that might just be my post hoc rationalization when I rightfully get called out for being an openly distrustful, mercenary little s**t.

More to the point, anybody who values their pension plan in this day and age needs to go to great lengths to protect it, precisely because it is one of the last vestiges of a functioning social contract, and it's catnip for predatory carpetbagger MBAs. Personally, I do not think the FedEx TA accomplishes that. It firmly settles the question of whether the company has an obligation to protect the pension plan for ALL FedEx pilots, and all but ensures the future mismanagement of same to the increasing apathy of future employees.

That's just one outsider's opinion on the internet, of course.

 

[A Life Aloft]

Employee Stock Option Programs are the best. Nothing could go wrong with those. Just ask UAL.

@A Life Aloft

Oh yeah.............what a special time that was. So if you lucky to have a job with us employees, just take even more benefit and pay cuts than you already have, plus eat more work rule concessions, we'll make you "owner-employees" of this wonderful airline by giving you stock options that won't be worth the price of a box of kleenex when you try to sell them down the road, and we're also going to furlough even more of you at all levels and then file for bankruptcy in the nearish future anyways. The ESOP as it turned out, was created to fund the buyout of Stephen Wolf. Surprise surprise. My brother used his stock certificates to wallpaper part of a wall in his garage where his hand tools hung. I and two other pilots held a Viking type funeral for ours at the lagoon in Long Beach. lol

 

[Autothrust Blue]

It's not Stockholm Syndrome to trace the history of American corporate governance in my lifetime to find that discharging obligations in bankruptcy has become an openly sought-after outcome for the executive class. It also isn't Stockholm Syndrome to see that established case history has put laborers with decades of pension contributions firmly at the bottom of the unsecured creditor list in bankruptcy cases - especially airline bankruptcies. The consequences of this cultural devolution came as a devastating shock to my parents when I was a young man, but I was at least afforded a chance to learn from their experience and plan my adult life accordingly.

...or that might just be my post hoc rationalization when I rightfully get called out for being an openly distrustful, mercenary little s**t.

More to the point, anybody who values their pension plan in this day and age needs to go to great lengths to protect it, precisely because it is one of the last vestiges of a functioning social contract, and it's catnip for predatory carpetbagger MBAs. Personally, I do not think the FedEx TA accomplishes that. It firmly settles the question of whether the company has an obligation to protect the pension plan for ALL FedEx pilots, and all but ensures the future mismanagement of same to the increasing apathy of future employees.

That's just one outsider's opinion on the internet, of course.

The 401(k) was never really intended as the Everyman retirement savings vehicle to begin with.

I dunno, it just seems like you're going to be screwed regardless and the bonus will get paid out to the guy doing the screwing.

 

[Avalon781ML]

I'm shocked that the top widebody rate at the end of the contract is lower than DL's current wide body rate… unless I read that wrong.

I’m a no vote on this TA… if it passes I will be looking at other employment options… much to my chagrin.

 

[CFIT99]

I’m a no vote on this TA… if it passes I will be looking at other employment options… much to my chagrin.

stay positive bro, also glad to see someone uses the word "chagrin"

 

[Hacker15e]

Back to JC just to say "I'm voting no."

 

[Hacker15e]

Honestly I'm disappointed that there really aren't any good memes out about it yet.

 

[Avalon781ML]

stay positive bro, also glad to see someone uses the word "chagrin"

I’m staying positive… it’s just uncomfortable flying with people who tell me they “deserve” the retirement bump… because they do deserve it but at what cost? I can’t believe the MEC thought this turd is a good thing.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Stockholm Syndrome. Corporations have conditioned people that pensions are bad and that the company isn’t responsible for your retirement.

Because it isn't. You got paid while you worked at the company. You were paid for services rendered. This idea that you could then stop working, but still have the company support you til the day you die sounds... untenable. That could be 20+ yrs of care needed for someone bringing in 0 revenue.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

@Hacker15e you're alive!!


I hope you're doing well and all is good. It's been a long time.

 

[///AMG]

Because it isn't. You got paid while you worked at the company. You were paid for services rendered. This idea that you could then stop working, but still have the company support you til the day you die sounds... untenable. That could be 20+ yrs of care needed for someone bringing in 0 revenue.

I wouldn't say that they are today. But back then, up to and including the time when pensions were swept up from underneath the feet of career employees, they had been entitled to them. If you took a job with the contractual entitlement to a pension, and then lost it due to a bankruptcy, you'd probably be singing a different tune. It was a different era of retirement planning. We are fortunate to have grown up in a time, where as adults, the assumption was a 401k (or more generically, a personal program retirement plan), and we have planned accordingly. And on that note, aside from our profession and perhaps a few others, the trade off for employers is that folks no longer have brand loyalty and leave every few years to pursue higher pay somewhere else. Which has a detrimental effect of its own for the employer. I think the employer still comes out ahead there though. A pension fund is probably prohibitively expensive these days, in most cases. Even the DoD dumped theirs a few years ago, starting with new service members in 2018 IIRC.

 

[BobDDuck]

Because it isn't. You got paid while you worked at the company. You were paid for services rendered. This idea that you could then stop working, but still have the company support you til the day you die sounds... untenable. That could be 20+ yrs of care needed for someone bringing in 0 revenue.

Except FedEx still has a pension plan as a negotiated benefit. So under their current contract, there is an expectation of pay for past services rendered. And yes, the pension fund could be on the hook for pay a guy for 20 years after he retires. That's how pensions work.

It's absolutely fine for the pension to go away, but a) the guys there have to be comfortable with whatever replaces it (whether it's a retirement benefit or something else), and b) until they do vote to end the plan, it's part of their contract just as much as their payrates and vacation.