Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
NTSB reported that the plane did have it's airframe de-ice system selected on and was picking up ice. The aicraft began to have controlability problems once flaps 15 was selected.
Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407
- Thread starter dakovich
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Approach Control
New Member
My thoughts and prayers are with the remaining families, they are the ones who need moral, spiritual and physical support at this time.
One of the biggest problems I have with the media relative to aviation, is their perpetual need to hype a new story, especially when an aircraft goes down. I just don't need that in my life. All I need the media to do, is stick the microphone where the NTSB can get to it and let the NTSB do their job - which is [at this stage] Technical Discovery - Fact Finding.
I heard one former commercial pilot [ret.] rank down the possibilities this way:
1) Pilot
2) Mechanical
3) Weather
He admitted that while not having full details on the backgrounds of the crew involved, he did not see any signs of a history of problems such as repeated failed check-rides, etc. He preliminarily ruled out number 1. He then went on to admit that while he did not have personal experience with the Q400, that he had not researched or heard of any historical mechanical issues that would fit what he currently knew about the crash site. He preliminarily ruled out number 2.
He then opened up in both tone and demeanor as he seemed to settle into a mental comfort zone [if you will] as he spoke the words: "That leaves weather." Then he broke into a discussion about on-board anti and de-icing equipment and how that might apply to any aircraft, not just the Q 400.
Though I am not a pilot yet, it seems rather bizarre that any aircraft would simply "depart" at 1,500 ft while on approach and very near the center line of the runway. The most bizarre thing to me [as a non-pilot] is that all reports until now, are that there was no mayday call recorded by ATC, nor any audible sounds coming from the cockpit [heard by ATC] that would have indicated there was a problem.
So, whatever it was that caused the departure form stabilized flight [without rank speculation] it was extremely quick with a very tiny event-horizon, according to ATC's inability to even get an audible alert of any kind whatsoever.
It is the total lack of even an audible inference of a problem from the cockpit, that bothers me so much.
Does the lack of any audible inference from the cockpit seem like it could have been a normal component of something like this? Or, should ATC have been able to at the very least, hear some kind of sound over the radio, that this flight might have a problem?
One of the biggest problems I have with the media relative to aviation, is their perpetual need to hype a new story, especially when an aircraft goes down. I just don't need that in my life. All I need the media to do, is stick the microphone where the NTSB can get to it and let the NTSB do their job - which is [at this stage] Technical Discovery - Fact Finding.
I heard one former commercial pilot [ret.] rank down the possibilities this way:
1) Pilot
2) Mechanical
3) Weather
He admitted that while not having full details on the backgrounds of the crew involved, he did not see any signs of a history of problems such as repeated failed check-rides, etc. He preliminarily ruled out number 1. He then went on to admit that while he did not have personal experience with the Q400, that he had not researched or heard of any historical mechanical issues that would fit what he currently knew about the crash site. He preliminarily ruled out number 2.
He then opened up in both tone and demeanor as he seemed to settle into a mental comfort zone [if you will] as he spoke the words: "That leaves weather." Then he broke into a discussion about on-board anti and de-icing equipment and how that might apply to any aircraft, not just the Q 400.
Though I am not a pilot yet, it seems rather bizarre that any aircraft would simply "depart" at 1,500 ft while on approach and very near the center line of the runway. The most bizarre thing to me [as a non-pilot] is that all reports until now, are that there was no mayday call recorded by ATC, nor any audible sounds coming from the cockpit [heard by ATC] that would have indicated there was a problem.
So, whatever it was that caused the departure form stabilized flight [without rank speculation] it was extremely quick with a very tiny event-horizon, according to ATC's inability to even get an audible alert of any kind whatsoever.
It is the total lack of even an audible inference of a problem from the cockpit, that bothers me so much.
Does the lack of any audible inference from the cockpit seem like it could have been a normal component of something like this? Or, should ATC have been able to at the very least, hear some kind of sound over the radio, that this flight might have a problem?
sopdan
Well-Known Member
The mic would have to be keyed up for any sound to be heard by ATC. In a situation such as this, talking on the radio takes a back seat to everything else that needs to be done.
Duck_Twacy
Well-Known Member
Bleed air, you got it.
The CRJ horiz. stab. doesn't have a heated leading edge? Really?
Yup, reminiscent of a tail stall. Awful....I was just having a conversation with a friend the other day about how complacent I've become in icing...it is no joke and can get any of us at any time.
embraer07
Well-Known Member
I'm watching the CNN news conference with the NTSB right now and saw that as well. He said that as soon as flaps 15 were selected the aircraft began to pitch and roll violently out of control.
Has anybody else noticed the simliarities between this accident and the American Eagle 4184 crash of '94? In both instances turbo-prop aircraft were flying in known icing conditions when, upon altering the flap settings they both spiraled out of control.
This is very sad. My thoughts and prayers go out to all the victim's families.
Murdoughnut
Well sized member
No one ever talks about it, but I feel awful for the gate agents/crew that work these flights. That must give you nightmares at night, seeing each person's face as they board the plane. This can definitely be a nasty business at times.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Wings and Cowls only.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
CRJ, E170, B727 no heat on the tail as they don't build significant amounts of ice.
I agree, the news channels need to stop speculating and trying to hype the story and using so called experts. Just pass the mic to the NTSB and let them speak.
I agree, the news channels need to stop speculating and trying to hype the story and using so called experts. Just pass the mic to the NTSB and let them speak.
beechpilot
Well-Known Member
I had the same feeling....almost like being sick. While I don't know a lot of airline pilots most of the ones I do know work at Colgan. When I got up this morning the first thing I heard was that Colgan had lost a Q400 and to think it might have been someone I knew was a very bad feeling. While I didn't know anyone on board I'm still very saddened at this loss. I can't imagine the feeling of losing friends in a situation like this like many of you are going through. Everyone at Colgan and the families of the victims are in my thoughts and prayers. May CJC3407 RIP
Yes. I mentioned it on page 6 of this thread....was one of the first things that occurred to me. Different phases of flight mind-you, but both turboprops of a similar design. No doubt 4184 may be used for reference during this investigation to either support or rule out causal factors.
brewpilot
Well-Known Member
Well..... When I was based up in CRW, I flew out of IAD alot in fact one of my 4 Day trips was with Capt Joe Z. (Jumpseater). All I can say was he was a great guy. Kinda like a Big Brother helping me out cause I was one month out of IOE and still was learning everything about the SAAB. He gave me good pointers and was a great guy to fly with. In fact, after the day was over in the middle of our 4 day, we had a long sit before our show time the next day. He offered to go have some drinks, which he paid for, and we just hung out and b s about alot how he graduated from college and started at Colgan and how he wanted to go on to the Majors and just had a great time. After our trip we became friends, saying hi to each other in the crew room and thats about it. I am still in aww. You just don't realize how lucky we are with life until something horrible happens close to you. He was a great guy! RIP and everyone else involved in this sad event that has happened. I am praying for all the family and friends of the victims. RIP
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Our Fellow Pilots,
The Colgan MEC would like to express our deepest condolences to the families and loved ones of all those on board Flight 3407, including our fellow aviators, Captain Marvin Renslow, First Officer Rebecca Shaw, and Captain Joe Zuffoletto, as well as flight attendants Donna Prisco and Matilda Quintero.
ALPA quickly responded to news of the accident, dispatching a team including Colgan pilots and ALPA staff, as well as representatives from a number of other ALPA pilot groups, to support the NTSB in its investigation. As ALPA is a party to the investigation, the union cannot comment on the accident at this time. Please NOTE: If you are contacted or approached by anyone regarding this incident, please do not comment; direct reporters to media@alpa.org.
ALPA has also made available volunteers through its Critical Incident Response Program (CIRP). Volunteers involved in the CIRP Committee are trained in peer support for pilots. They will be available in our crew lounges in EWR, IAH and IAD, or by contacting ALPA CIRP Committee Chairman Louise Cullinan (MAG) at (970) 291-9367.
In addition to the assistance from our union and fellow ALPA members that we are already receiving, many of our ALPA brothers and sisters have offered their personal support and assistance. ALPA is inviting members and others to donate to ALPA’s Emergency Relief Fund to assist the family members affected by this tragedy. You can make a donation by following the links found at www.alpa.org.
We sincerely appreciate the generous outpouring of support that has been made to our pilot group today, which is another example of how the ALPA family comes together to help fellow pilots.
Fraternally,
Capt. Mark Segaloff, Temporary MEC Chairman
First Officer Carla Widman, Temporary MEC Vice-Chairman
Capt. Timothy Newkirk, Temporary MEC Secretary/Treasurer
deadstick
Well-Known Member
I thought Roselawn was a combination of airfoil design and autopilot.
pullup
Homewrecker
My understanding is that the plane was on autopilot at 8,000. They were not able to "feel" the ice building up, the control surfaces ran out of usable movement, the plane rolled and crashed. This one remains to be seen. If they were on AP until throwing the flaps they may not have felt the restriction in control surfaces until, obviously, it was too late.
RIP.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Just bumping this since there was a specific question about the Q and feel of the aircraft.Joe... normally that would happen, but the Q has hyd. elevator with artificial feel that is limited. sadly, the tail stall in the Q would most likely feel like a stick pusher activation, while the outside appearances would look like the stick pusher gone haywire.Again, my thoughts go out to all involved, I've just been called in to cover the back half of a pairing
skatergeek
Beet Farmer
My prayers and thoughts go to all that were lost.
I found this article, and I am not sure what to make of it...
Some Smaller Airlines' Pilost Have Less Experience
I found this article, and I am not sure what to make of it...
Some Smaller Airlines' Pilost Have Less Experience
Soul Brotha'
Off to go do Black guy stuff
This one has had me really uncomfortable the whole day. I don't know why but I am really upset about this crash in particular. I am glad they found the CVR & FDR. Hopefully it will give us the answers we really need.
It was. The airfoil/aircraft design similarities and conditions prevailing at the time are what brought that accident to mind. Not saying there's any direct correlation, but it's worth a look, IMHO.
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