Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

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cencal83406 said:
I don't think it has tail boots. The CRJ doesn't have any ice-protection on the tail either.
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That would make sense then. I knew the last part, and we fly a lot faster profile which helps in the icing.

Got a tour of a Jetstar II recently, similar weight and speed to a CRJ and it had pnuematic wing and tail boots. I guess I thought the CRJ was the exception.
 
granlistillo said:
Without pushing the speculation, where did this idea of a tail stall come up? I dont know squat about a Dash 8, but I thought I saw deice boots on the horizontal stab. So if icing is an issue, and if both the wings and horizontal stabs are equipped with anti icing boots, why is there speculation about the tail?
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For everybody, I'm only trying to answer this question... not making inferences as to what actually happened.

Boots only help when used, and used properly/timely, and they also have to work (just like any other ice protection system). I'm not a Q400 driver, so I don't know exactly how their system works. As far as why people are thinking tail stall, it appears the aircraft impacted at a very steep angle. A tail stall would cause the a/c to nose over, possibly quite abruptly/violently.

All of that plus the reported icing in the area (and indeed conditions were prime for icing in the region last night), is what is causing the speculation of a tail stall.
 
WacoFan said:
Sorry for what is probably a stupid question. Do tailplane stalls happen primarily in turboprops, or has there been instances of pure jets having them?
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Personally, I've never heard of it in jets.

Sully would suck bad at this job. He is too professional to engage in rank speculation in the immediate aftermath of a crash.
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Trained accident investigators (Sully is one) don't engage in speculation. Only hacks like John Nance go on TV and do that. And they're just in it for the money.

Also, I think that the media seems to think that an accident investigation is primarily about assigning blame. My view is that accident investigation is about studying the science involved and getting as complete picture as you can in order to learn and prevent future accidents. The media is impatient with the process because they are looking for speed and blame assignment, not accident prevention and accuracy.
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Absolutely true on both counts. The media wants to know why RIGHT NOW. Since they can't they engage in rampant speculation. Most of the time its wrong, but you never see them go back and correct it.

Socal321 said:
This may have been a stall looking at the accident scene. This is a pretty big airplane, if it would have been on a glide type flight it would have taken out more houses or had a longer accident area..
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One of the first things you try to determine in an accident is the angle at which the airplane impacted the earth. You can get a pretty accurate read by the size and shape of the debris field. The longer more oval the debris field, the shallower the angle of impact. Conversely if all the debris is contained in a deep, round hole you can infer the airplane impacted vertically.

granlistillo said:
Without pushing the speculation, where did this idea of a tail stall come up? I dont know squat about a Dash 8, but I thought I saw deice boots on the horizontal stab. So if icing is an issue, and if both the wings and horizontal stabs are equipped with anti icing boots, why is there speculation about the tail?
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Possible partial system failure? Those questions will have to be answered by the investigation. You can bet that's one of the things the investigators will consider.
 
cloudman said:
:( Sad day. Can someone tell me who the FO's name? I know several Colgan pilots.

Extra prayers.
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It was Rebecca Shaw.

Article: http://www.kirotv.com/news/18708907/detail.html#

I felt horrible for the Colgan crew that came in after them. I couldn't imagine flying the approach and then have the approach controller tell me that company traffic had just crashed. I haven't had such a sinking feeling like that in a very long time.

Has the Q ever had issues with flap asymmetry problems? Seems like I remember something very vague about this in the past.

As for the media...I like the mute button on the TV and JC is a pretty good reporting source for all things aviation! And Sully wouldn't be speculating like the fools on TV. I can promise you he has had upteen dozen calls for it though!
 
Joe Z. was based in IAD after the closure of Jamestown, NY and was a recent transition to the Q-400. He was hired in the summer of 2005, and progressed thru the SAAB F/O and Captain seats. He was very active in our recent ALPA organization and I really enjoyed talking and joking around with. He was soft-spoken, freindly and just a pleasant person to be around. I was scheduled to attend Safety School with Joe in San Antonio next week, where I was looking foward to tilting a few beers after-hours.
Very difficult to believe this happened, but I hope that we as a pilot group can work together to re-builf the faith and confidence of the flying public after we mourn the loss of all souls aboard CJC 3407 and the ground that lost their lives.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead
 
Very upsetting for everyone in the industry as well as the families of the passengers. I never thought I'd get to the news report and have to read a friends name. Nothing describes that feeling...
 
BE19Pilot said:
Joe Z. was based in IAD after the closure of Jamestown, NY and was a recent transition to the Q-400. He was hired in the summer of 2005, and progressed thru the SAAB F/O and Captain seats. He was very active in our recent ALPA organization and I really enjoyed talking and joking around with. He was soft-spoken, freindly and just a pleasant person to be around. I was scheduled to attend Safety School with Joe in San Antonio next week, where I was looking foward to tilting a few beers after-hours.
Very difficult to believe this happened, but I hope that we as a pilot group can work together to re-builf the faith and confidence of the flying public after we mourn the loss of all souls aboard CJC 3407 and the ground that lost their lives.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead
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This may explain why he has a familiar face. If it is the person I'm thinking of he was a really funny guy who I'd always wished to know beyond just in passing.
Regardless this is all very sad. But I have always admired the sense of community within the Colgan family. And that sense of community and family will help a lot to get through this and will make Colgan even stronger.

R.I.P. Colgan 3407
 
What a horrible day in aviation. RIP to all in the accident and thoughts to those who knew the victims.


Couple of questions... Does the Q400 have an auto feature for the ice protection? I know the ERJ just comes on as soon as one of the two detectors detects ice.

Also it surprised me when someone said that the Q400 and CRJ don't have horizontal stab ice protection. In the videos it looked as it had some sort of black boot on the surface but I don't know? Also how are boots inflated? Is it bleed air or is it some kind of air compressor the inflates them? How come turboprops don't have the heated bleed type ice protection?

Sorry for what may seem like dumb questions but just doesn't make sense that a brand new airliner would go down in those conditions.
 
I suspect that the Q400 shares the same ice detection with the CRJ series. Two detectors, on each side of the cockpit, vibrating at 39,987 hz, sensing a change in frequency to signal "ice".
 
Caught the news early this morning while checking the weather before my show time. I've been thinking about it all day. I'm so sorry and sickened to hear about this. My condolences to all the Colgan crew members on the site, not to mention the families involved. :(
 
But the CRJ is the piccolo tube bleed air type isn't it? Is the CRJ an AUTO feature or do you have to turn it on manually?
 
The Q400 has a ice detect system much like the crj. The system is not automatic, it gives you an ice detect message on the ED.
 
Would like to wish all of the Colgan crew and their families my condolences as well as the rest of the Colgan community who had these people touch their lives..A sad day........
 
WGRZ is reporting right now. Here is what the NTSB reporter, Steve Chealander, is confirming:

They found the CVR and has been flown to Washington for analysis.

Chealander couldn't pronounce Colgan. But the parties involved in the investivation are ALPA and manufacturers, among others.

The CVR recorded 2 hours and the Flight Data Recorder was also recovered. The CVR has recorded:

crew brief ILS approach, weather, discussion of significant ice build up on windshield and wings.

Crew discussed airframe deice, verified as on. Landing Gear down, flaps 15. The flight director shows severe pitch and roll after the flaps went to 15.

The crew attempted to raise gear and flaps just before the end of the recording. These are the facts NTSB is reporting.
 
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