Plane Down in Buffalo - Colgan Continental Flight 3407

[SpiceWeasel]

Disclaimer: I've never flown a Dash-8, but I can describe exactly how a tail stall feels in a Convair 580 because it happened to me once.

The Convair had a nasty habit of accreting tail ice even on blue sky clear days if the temperature/humidity was right. It had to do with the horizontal stab being right in line with the beavertails (exhausts).

Anyway, you would never notice it until you dropped the flaps. At that point the lift from the wings exceeded the ability of the horizontal stab to compensate.

The nose dropped like a rock. The only recovery was to go to full power and yank the flaps back up so the elevator would regain effectiveness. The problem was, it took almost 1000 feet of altitude to recover. When I instructed in the CV-580, I used to recommend to the guys that they get the aircraft configured above 1500' agl just in case, especially if there was any suspicion that the tail could be iced up.

My experience happened one day on arrival at NAS Norfolk. Fortunately, we were high enough when the nose pitched over to recover. But, it was a scary ride, I can assure you.

Thanks man. Good info to know.

 

[SteveC]

Charlie, this needs to be repeated so I'm copying your post again. Thanks to you (and Velo) for spelling this out so succinctly.

To further back up what Velo said-

In times like this it's normal to feel bad and feel shocked. You might feel a slightly surreal sense of detachment from your perceived surroundings. Maybe even a bit like life is a movie playing on a screen in front of your face and just swimming around you.

You might also be spiked on adrenaline and anger, or just feel sad, sullen, and depressed. Either way, you feel a little more distant from the world around you than normal.

Stop and take an honest assessment of how you really feel, and then SLOW DOWN.

Times like this make it difficult to understand one's true state of mind, but you may not be as composed as you think you are.

This, unfortunately, is a fairly normal response.

If you feel like this, I strongly suggest you speak with someone- ANYONE.. about how you're feeling. I helps more than you might realize and will benefit not just you but everyone around you.

This goes double for working crews. The additional level of distraction inherent in times like these can be taxing and erode your effectiveness.

Don't be the 'tough guy' that doesn't speak up because you think you can 'handle it'.

I speak from personal and witnessed experience- nobody's that tough. This sort of thing is insidiously subtle and strangely pervasive.

Get it out in the open. Nobody needs to face how they feel alone right now.

I may post this as a sticky also.

 

[SmitteyB]

The JSer, CA Joe Zufoletto was a Q400 CA based in EWR. He started as a SAAB FO in Jamestown, NY became a SAAB CA in Jamestown and then Washington-Dulles. He recently transitioned to the Q.

I met Joe at ALPA Nat'l Headquarters in late January during the Leadership Conference. Joe was on the Organizing Committee, was Secretart/Treasurer for LEC 157 in EWR and was seeking an appointment to the Safety Committee. He was a role model to his first officers and colleagues. He was committed to making Colgan a better place to work through Legal Representation.

He will be missed.

I wasn't fortunate enough to know the Q400 crew, but I admire their courage. The Colgan family and profession today mourn the loss of these 5 professionals. May god be with them.

 

[mhcasey]

A very sad day. Condolences to the victims and all involved.

I'll post this link in a new thread, but for those interested in icing and the possibility of a tail stall, the NASA training course is pretty solid: http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html.

It sounds like the crash occurred just inside the outer marker? I'm not an airline guy, but would this be consistent with a configuration change (flaps) necessary to induce a tail stall?

A final thought: Sully is a media (and actual) hero. Can the networks just start calling him for information? Please?

 

[MikeD]

1. MQAA, I figured if anyone would remember Roselawn, you would. I vaguely remember you mentioning you'd known the crew of that one.

2. For those getting pissed at the media's incompetence, save your anger. They'll never change, they've been morons for a long time now, and getting angry over it isn't going to change anything. Even with the US Air accident into the Hudson, I can still remember the conversation between the two moron reporters: (names changed to protect the innocent)

"...so Jon, how is it that the aircraft can be remaining afloat for so long?"

"..well bob, that's because the cabin's....known as fuselages.....of these aircraft are pressurized, and that provides the buoyancy for it to remain afloat as long as it has."

Of course, that's barring the 6 open exits and no engines running.........but why worry about piddly items such as the facts?

 

[teetee]

My condolences to all that knew the crew or any passengers! Stay safe guys!!!!

 

[kellwolf]

Mt favorite is CNN's weather guy giving expert testimony on airframe icing. He also mentioned carb ice in the engine. Tell ya what, dude? I won't report on the WX if you stop talking about airplanes.

 

[fender_jag]

Wow. <sigh>

 

[AMH]

Mt favorite is CNN's weather guy giving expert testimony on airframe icing. He also mentioned carb ice in the engine. Tell ya what, dude? I won't report on the WX if you stop talking about airplanes.

Tell me about it. Watching someone bumble through an explanation while relying on the audience to not know anything about the subject, when they themselves lack the same intelligence, is painful.

 

[kellwolf]

Tell me about it. Watching someone bumble through an explanation and relying on the audience not knowing anything about the subject, when they themselves lack the same intelligence, is painful.

Not sure what I was thinking when I decided to wathc the "briefing" on CNN.com. The New York governor got up, and pretty much made himself look like a politician. Right up until he started talking about other tragedies in the state and said "Miracle on 34th....er...um....Miracle on the Hudson."

 

[VATechPilot]

The JSer, CA Joe Zufoletto was a Q400 CA based in EWR. He started as a SAAB FO in Jamestown, NY became a SAAB CA in Jamestown and then Washington-Dulles. He recently transitioned to the Q.

Do you know when he did IAD?

 

[WacoFan]

Disclaimer: I've never flown a Dash-8, but I can describe exactly how a tail stall feels in a Convair 580 because it happened to me once.

The Convair had a nasty habit of accreting tail ice even on blue sky clear days if the temperature/humidity was right. It had to do with the horizontal stab being right in line with the beavertails (exhausts).

Anyway, you would never notice it until you dropped the flaps. At that point the lift from the wings exceeded the ability of the horizontal stab to compensate.

The nose dropped like a rock. The only recovery was to go to full power and yank the flaps back up so the elevator would regain effectiveness. The problem was, it took almost 1000 feet of altitude to recover. When I instructed in the CV-580, I used to recommend to the guys that they get the aircraft configured above 1500' agl just in case, especially if there was any suspicion that the tail could be iced up.

My experience happened one day on arrival at NAS Norfolk. Fortunately, we were high enough when the nose pitched over to recover. But, it was a scary ride, I can assure you.

Sorry for what is probably a stupid question. Do tailplane stalls happen primarily in turboprops, or has there been instances of pure jets having them? I know that jets probably can suffer these, just wondering if they are more prominent in T-props, perhaps because T-props are in the ice longer. Also, would be interesting to hear from MJG if he has ever had one in a P-3.

A very sad day. Condolences to the victims and all involved.

I'll post this link in a new thread, but for those interested in icing and the possibility of a tail stall, the NASA training course is pretty solid: http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html.

It sounds like the crash occurred just inside the outer marker? I'm not an airline guy, but would this be consistent with a configuration change (flaps) necessary to induce a tail stall?

A final thought: Sully is a media (and actual) hero. Can the networks just start calling him for information? Please?

Sully would suck bad at this job. He is too professional to engage in rank speculation in the immediate aftermath of a crash. The media is into speed first and everything else below that, including facts. Te 24 hour news cycle has exaserbated that trend. Also, I think that the media seems to think that an accident investigation is primarily about assigning blame. My view is that accident investigation is about studying the science involved and getting as complete picture as you can in order to learn and prevent future accidents. The media is impatient with the process because they are looking for speed and blame assignment, not accident prevention and accuracy.

 

[killbilly]

For what it's worth, not all the journalists are 'tards.

Miles O'Brien, former CNN anchor and pilot, wrote a fairly good piece about this.

http://milesobrien.wordpress.com/2009/02/13/nothing-super-cool-about-it/

 

[kellwolf]

I actually miss Miles O'Brien. He was actually somewhere NEAR the truth when they brought him out as an aviation expert.

 

[Clearblue]

Disclaimer: I've never flown a Dash-8, but I can describe exactly how a tail stall feels in a Convair 580 because it happened to me once.

The Convair had a nasty habit of accreting tail ice even on blue sky clear days if the temperature/humidity was right. It had to do with the horizontal stab being right in line with the beavertails (exhausts).

Anyway, you would never notice it until you dropped the flaps. At that point the lift from the wings exceeded the ability of the horizontal stab to compensate.

The nose dropped like a rock. The only recovery was to go to full power and yank the flaps back up so the elevator would regain effectiveness. The problem was, it took almost 1000 feet of altitude to recover. When I instructed in the CV-580, I used to recommend to the guys that they get the aircraft configured above 1500' agl just in case, especially if there was any suspicion that the tail could be iced up.

My experience happened one day on arrival at NAS Norfolk. Fortunately, we were high enough when the nose pitched over to recover. But, it was a scary ride, I can assure you.

NASA test pilot say pretty much the same thing....http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses/inflight_icing/related/3_2_3f_RI.html

 

[Socal321]

Joe... normally that would happen, but the Q has hyd. elevator with artificial feel that is limited. sadly, the tail stall in the Q would most likely feel like a stick pusher activation, while the outside appearances would look like the stick pusher gone haywire.Again, my thoughts go out to all involved, I've just been called in to cover the back half of a pairing

This may have been a stall looking at the accident scene. This is a pretty big airplane, if it would have been on a glide type flight it would have taken out more houses or had a longer accident area. Also the tail position says a lot, it was in very good condition and intact and right next to the rest of the plane. The elevators were also level. RIP

It's just crazy, I think we all wonder what we would do after a 12 hour duty day on that final approach if anything went wrong, would I have the mental focus to take care of a sudden emergency? It's too early to speculate but I hope that ALPA or other organizations look into using this as a way for people to look into pilot schedules. Hopefully then the crew and pax's lives would not have been taken in vain.

 

[kellwolf]

Just out of curiousity, what kind of ice detection is there on the Q? I know on the CRJ, we've got the overly sensetive ice detector, and you can see ice building on the nut of the windshield wipers. Does the Q have anything electronic to let the pilots know of icing conditions?

 

[granlistillo]

Sorry for what is probably a stupid question. Do tailplane stalls happen primarily in turboprops, or has there been instances of pure jets having them? I know that jets probably can suffer these, just wondering if they are more prominent in T-props, perhaps because T-props are in the ice longer. Also, would be interesting to hear from MJG if he has ever had one in a P-3.

Without pushing the speculation, where did this idea of a tail stall come up? I dont know squat about a Dash 8, but I thought I saw deice boots on the horizontal stab. So if icing is an issue, and if both the wings and horizontal stabs are equipped with anti icing boots, why is there speculation about the tail?

This crash is not only gut wrenching, it is terrifying and I know we want answers, but speculation is almost always wrong in the end, and can hurt peoples feelings. Just my .02 worth.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Without pushing the speculation, where did this idea of a tail stall come up? I dont know squat about a Dash 8, but I thought I saw deice boots on the horizontal stab. So if icing is an issue, and if both the wings and horizontal stabs are equipped with anti icing boots, why is there speculation about the tail?

This crash is not only gut wrenching, it is terrifying and I know we want answers, but speculation is almost always wrong in the end, and can hurt peoples feelings. Just my .02 worth.

I don't think it has tail boots. The CRJ doesn't have any ice-protection on the tail either.

 

[Rayflyoz]

The Q400 has tail deice and also an ice detect system.

RIP