Hand flying a transport category jet in a deep stall at altitude is something that isn't truly practiced. It's done in the simulator but that data is iffy at best. Hand flying skills below FL180, where most of it is done would have some transfer but not as much as you would think.
Oh Qatar
- Thread starter Cherokee_Cruiser
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SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
These are just issues related to not understanding the systems and automation. Pilots refuse to accept that they’re now systems managers and not hand flyers.
Yeah, you’re right, I’ve been flying longer than many people here have been alive, including fourteen years at the airlines, but I can’t have an opinion. I’m curious, is @A Life Aloft also no longer allowed to post on flying topics since he’s been retired for years? What about @SteveC who recently retired? @DE727UPS?
Nah, just me, right? Your jealousy is showing.
I thought it was bad enough when Pinnacle was still training us with them in 2002.
In what universe? Not this one.
Bingo! Yet another example of pilots not having proper understanding of the airplane that they’re flying. A consequence of having these incredibly technologically advanced aircraft is that it becomes imperative that pilots understand their systems inside and out. It is far more important than silly hand flying.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I agree.
This is a full stall (during flight test) at altitude in the 717.
We pretty routinely did full stalls at altitude during CQ in the 717 sim. It snapped hard, but I never had it go close to inverted.
Soku39
Well-Known Member
I have zero Airbus experience. Air France 447 comes to mind as a prime example of what happens when you never hand fly. Do the computers on a bus even let the plane get into a "deep stall"? My understanding is that at any given moment during their 3 minute floating leaf soft stall they could have pitched over, added power and been completely fine. Experience in a sim or the plane below 18 would have been helpful for ab-initio pilots that by the time they were in their 30s had been flying solely long haul and spent the majority of their career landing the real airplane once or twice a month, literally 300 or less landings in a real airplane in their entire career. maybe less. Same deal with Asiana at SFO.
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Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
For AF? It was a combination of many factors. Including an industry that didn’t teach proper stall recovery (stay in stick shaker to minimize altitude loss, which actually involved a alright pull back as you powered out of the stall). Partially an an initio pilot with a management pilot flying once every 90 days. Partially because Airbus guys (in my opinion) don’t get enough alternate law and direct law stuff in training.
Air Asia was just sad. No one should be resetting CBs inflight unless following a QRH procedure. That airplane was also man-handled horribly.
I flew the Airbus with basically 3 fingertips. I never had a firm full hand grasp on it. Not needed. Same on the Boeing. I’ll do a full grasp for the rotation part. But once we’re airborne, I’m basically using fingertips and the thumb for the stab trim.
And while true that pilots don’t really practice deep stalls at high altitudes, it still took horrible hand flying that involved pitching 15 deg nose up and holding that to obtain a 7,000+ FOM climb in the mid 30 thousands. That’s unacceptable.
Wanna watch how a pilot really reacts.? Have them in cruise FL350 and unexpectedly AP off. No other change to flight path, just off. The cool ones will take a second to look at what happened and then re-engage. The quick snap ones will immediately grab the control and then take take the airplane away from what was a smooth flight. In the flight levels, it is sensitive. It doesn’t take much.
Modern Commercial jetliners are inherently stable. Very rarely do you have to man-handle them. In EVERY case: AF, Colgan, Atlas, had the pilots done NOTHING for a good solid 5-10 seconds and just studied the situation, they’d probably be alive. Even an approach to stall with a shaker doesn’t mean you’re stalled. Colgan had plenty of time. That shaker went off at artificially inflated high speeds with the ice red switch. No rush needed.
Even in sim for recurrent stuff. Take a god dang second and actually look at what’s happening before handling it. Some all it winding the watch. Whatever floats your boat.
Soku39
Well-Known Member
The issue being how can you manage an energy state or aircraft state with the automation if you don't even know what you're looking for as far as feel and the proceeding cause and effect of performance from automation inputs. When the airplane didn't respond to the automation inpurts and the aircraft ended up being where I didn't want it, I have absolutely turned off the AP/AT hand flown, reset the airplane where I wanted it to be, taken a breath to ensure I knew exactly what I was calling for while the PM rengaged the automation is a logical manner as I made the call outs.
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Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
I mean this site was originally created as a networking, mentoring and teaching website, for all those up and coming in the ranks. General thought now is that we've gotten away from that. That the site has changed its focus lately with less student pilots joining the site, and or participating, than it was years ago. That the site has become less about aviation and more about the lav.
So when I try to venture out of the lav more and engage in actual pilot talk with pilots and mentors, by asking questions and participating in conversations. You know, what the site was originally made for. You want to be condescending and slap me down and tell me to shut up and go color. Stay in my lane and get back to working on my CFI and try to equate me to a PPL going up front. An attitude that goes against everything that this site was made for. So ummmm... yeah before you rebuke others for offenses, perhaps you should also check yourself too.
I know. I know. Laughing emoji.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
Feels like you're all just going round and round here. There's more than one way to skin a cat. If you (like me) find that *for you*, the best solution to "what the hell is it doing now?" is generally to clickty-click and hand-fly while the PM unscrews the box, do that. If you're the kind of guy who knows what the box is thinking before it thinks it and has the systems-architecture of the automation memorized to the last scintilla of information, great, ninja-hand them buttons.
That said, this near-disaster notwithstanding, the record of the last 30-40 years or so suggests to me that more people get dead when dudes try to out-think the airplane instead of reverting to "airspeed, thrust, blue up, red down". This is corroborated by the fact that the memory item we get drilled on by far the hardest (probably in the wake of AF 447, as Soku points out above) is Unreliable Airspeed, and it basically involves turning everything off, and flying pitch and power until someone figures out wtf is going on. They didn't just come by that procedure willy-nilly...big brains, Top Men decided that was the ticket.
That said, this near-disaster notwithstanding, the record of the last 30-40 years or so suggests to me that more people get dead when dudes try to out-think the airplane instead of reverting to "airspeed, thrust, blue up, red down". This is corroborated by the fact that the memory item we get drilled on by far the hardest (probably in the wake of AF 447, as Soku points out above) is Unreliable Airspeed, and it basically involves turning everything off, and flying pitch and power until someone figures out wtf is going on. They didn't just come by that procedure willy-nilly...big brains, Top Men decided that was the ticket.
As I said before, be good at both jobs: pilot and systems operator. The automation is there to make life easier, but you (all inclusive you) need to know how to use it, both when it’s working and when it’s not. Right along with that, a plane is still a plane, and you need to know how to fly it. It’s not a one or the other that many are trying to argue; be good at both, or hang this gig up. Failure to be good and proficient at one or the other, or both, will get you and others dead.
I would say you do come across sometimes like you have experience with something and then when it's confronted you then will caveat that you heard or watched what you are speaking about as experience. Those that have had their asses in the seats for awhile may take issue with that.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
He's just trying to prepare you for the snakepit which is APC/any internal airline message board. Gotta toughen you up. JC is like the bunny-slope. It takes, what, five or six pages before people are questioning each other's parentage and hinting darkly at just how many firearms they own. That's like five or six POSTS in the Big Leagues!
Baronman
Well-Known Member
I think you're describing a fair amount of the up and coming generation....Zero to wide body FO in a few years...I bet more than you think would struggle raw data hand flying with all automation off to fly a nice pattern in vfr. It is what it is now. Now 'Gram photo blogging, that is where they excel.
Do you guys compare beards in the Keg Room forum? Karbon jacket assemble, off to F-street.
haha. We have gone far past the backpack wearing, ear bud having, regional FO……that’s so early 2000s.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
The Karbons are for weak, beardless amateurs (like me). The real F-street mob have There's-Gold-In-Them-Thar-Hills beards with like flecks of bear-meat still in them, and wear increasingly outlandish jackets the further they get from SDF. I saw one dude with a Tombstone-style duster in ICN.
Wardogg
Meat Popsicle
Yeah, maybe I should rephrase. Maybe it's more of an "I don't know how to hand fly on instruments."
Had AF447 happened in day vmc would the outcome have been the same? Dunno. If so, then it would have definitely have been an "I dont know how to hand fly an airplane." accident.
I can only get so erect. Tbf the last time I closed down the usual spots was with a brown crew.
JordanD
Here so I don’t get fined
A lot of this is flat out wrong. I feel like you’re trying to come across as an authority on the Airbus when you haven’t flown it. AF447 is an extremely interesting case study with a lot of issues, but I really think there are some discussions you insert yourself into that are better suited for you to listen and ask questions rather than play the expert.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Words on a screen, be it here on text can sometimes get misconstrued. Am I eager to learn, yes. But like that famous 80's commercial where the kid tells his dad that he learned it all from watching you. That being you all. I've learned a lot here. I have a pretty great photographic memory. I've been on this site for greater than ten years. I've listen, wrote stuff down committed stuff said here over the years to memory. Sometimes regurgitating stuf fin conversation I've heard said here over the years, or IRL.
Having said that as the writer of my stuff. I'm telling you with certainty, that it is never my intention to come across as if I have actual experience. Even if you might feel from the tone that it is. I'll apologize if that is the way some of my post come across. But again I state that, that isn't at al my intent. We all know my background. I've never flown a 121 jet. The only thing that I can speak here with actual authority (and often do) is psych related stuff. Maybe my tensing/phrasing needs to be better to help get across what I'm trying to get down.
Yeah, I get excited after being a member here for almost twenty years and finally having finished primary training and slogging my way towards 1500. Now I feel that I can talk and add just a small bit to a conversation, related to my actual experience than I have for the past years, when my add to content here was more A.NET-like. I'll end simply by saying that at least the way that it was back then, when I joined this site. When many of you here now were also in primary, or you just got your time building job and are now you're at career spot. The tone and manner of the site was more helpful and educational. Like for your example of your last couple of post in this thread, where you actually took the time out to explain things to me I really appreciated that. Vs. someone being condescending and being told to stay in your lane. Go sit in the CFI corner. We never did that here before. And when if/it was done members were often quickly checked. Because it made new members often feel unwanted and unwelcomed, when they asked one or more of the typical questions, one has heard here a thousand times. And an ass hat says, "hey we have a search function. Or why don't you read some threads. We already talked about that."
If you don't appreciate what you feel, is me acting like I got experience. Which I don't. Trust me when I say that I don't appreciate being talked to like I'm a child and told to go color, the adults are talking and go finish my CFI. Disclaimer: I can tell the difference when someone's joking around. That's not the issue. But when someone means it and are an ass about it. I would honestly just rather leave the site altogether, if that's the new take/tone going forward and find a new place/community that's far more welcoming. Or just stick to FB JC chat and join with all the members who have left the site, and talk about the way it was. And the three members who are bringing the site down and causing old school members to flee.
TLDR
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
I already said in another post, that I got what I said from wiki. Can people not read? And I WAS asking questions.
Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia
Yesterday I said FROM MY ACTUAL EXPERIENCE that autopilots can get wonky. And I get called out from posting about my actual • experience.
Ugh... this is really getting frustrating. I guess that I just won't f-king post here anymore. Or I'll just stick to the godamn lav.