Oh Qatar

[ASpilot2be]

Words on a screen, be it here on text can sometimes get misconstrued. Am I eager to learn, yes. But like that famous 80's commercial where the kid tells his dad that he learned it all from watching you. That being you all. I've learned a lot here. I have a pretty great photographic memory. I've been on this site for greater than ten years. I've listen, wrote stuff down committed stuff said here over the years to memory. Sometimes regurgitating stuf fin conversation I've heard said here over the years, or IRL.

Having said that as the writer of my stuff. I'm telling you with certainty, that it is never my intention to come across as if I have actual experience. Even if you might feel from the tone that it is. I'll apologize if that is the way some of my post come across. But again I state that, that isn't at al my intent. We all know my background. I've never flown a 121 jet. The only thing that I can speak here with actual authority (and often do) is psych related stuff. Maybe my tensing/phrasing needs to be better to help get across what I'm trying to get down.

Yeah, I get excited after being a member here for almost twenty years and finally having finished primary training and slogging my way towards 1500. Now I feel that I can talk and add just a small bit to a conversation, related to my actual experience than I have for the past years, when my add to content here was more A.NET-like. I'll end simply by saying that at least the way that it was back then, when I joined this site. When many of you here now were also in primary, or you just got your time building job and are now you're at career spot. The tone and manner of the site was more helpful and educational. Like for your example of your last couple of post in this thread, where you actually took the time out to explain things to me I really appreciated that. Vs. someone being condescending and being told to stay in your lane. Go sit in the CFI corner. We never did that here before. And when if/it was done members were often quickly checked. Because it made new members often feel unwanted and unwelcomed, when they asked one or more of the typical questions, one has heard here a thousand times. And an ass hat says, "hey we have a search function. Or why don't you read some threads. We already talked about that."

If you don't appreciate what you feel, is me acting like I got experience. Which I don't. Trust me when I say that I don't appreciate being talked to like I'm a child and told to go color, the adults are talking and go finish my CFI. Disclaimer: I can tell the difference when someone's joking around. That's not the issue. But when someone means it and are an ass about it. I would honestly just rather leave the site altogether, if that's the new take/tone going forward and find a new place/community that's far more welcoming. Or just stick to FB JC chat and join with all the members who have left the site, and talk about the way it was. And the three members who are bringing the site down and causing old school members to flee.

TLDR

I think sometimes the intent of the message gets lost in the words. Sometimes just simple questions will do. It makes it easier to have a conversation about things.

 

[JordanD]

I already said in another post, that I got what I said from wiki.

Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Maybe it's wording. Both pilots pulling back on the sticks would sum the input, not greater than what full deflection with one stick would give you. Putting one forward and pulling back on the other one would cancel them out which if I remember right is closer to what happened. There's a lot about that crash that made a ton more sense after getting typed in an Airbus product (still not an A330, so even then there's probably a lot I don't know). I don't know if it's so much as an over reliance on automation in that crash or a lack of understanding of the systems on the airplane and what they do, which is why the laws on an Airbus and what each law gives you is hammered so hard in training. Same with pressing and holding the side stick takeover button if you ARE wrestling it away from the other person. Reading about it is even more harrowing after having some training on the bus IMO.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Besides both F/O's pulling simultaneously on their side sticks, effectively canceling out each others inputs. The AP had turned itself off because of the iced over pitot tubes and the pilots were then hand flying AF 447. The plane then stalled because the angle of attack tolerances were exceeded (at one time up to 40 degrees) and the IAS dropped to a low of 274 kts. Then in an attempt to recover from the stall, the planes nose was excessively dipped and the AOA of 30 degrees.

Was stalling an airliner due in part to an excessive (over) reliance on automation? Due in part to (maybe) a loss of basic piloting skills (stick and rudder) and not being able to recognize the characteristics of a stall and stall recovery procedure? Which is what Zap is maybe trying to illustrate with the example of AF 447. (This is a question)

Also after said incident I believe the talk both here on the site and at airlines training departments in the states. Was a stronger emphasis on upset recovery and a return to more hand flying up front. Due to skills that had perhaps atrophied over time due to (over) reliance on automation in the cockpit.

Which is why I asked the question to Todd and the group. I always thought it was an over reliance on automation and a loss of stick and rudder skills that led to the crash. So when I saw @SlumTodd_Millionaire say it wasn't. I went to look it up on Wiki, because I don't have any actual experience and it seemed as if it was. But I wasn't sure and wanted clarification.

(This is an explanation for the reason of my original question.)

So do you feel that it was lack of hand flying and an over reliance on automation, or lack of SA that led to that crash. Or a combination of the two?

(This was another question!)

 

[mikecweb]

I already said in another post, that I got what I said from wiki. Can people not read? And I WAS asking questions.

Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yesterday I said FROM MY ACTUAL EXPERIENCE that autopilots can get wonky. And I get called out from posting about my actual • experience.

Ugh... this is really getting frustrating. I guess that I just won't f-king post here anymore. Or I'll just stick to the godamn lav.

Meh relax a bit. I get that now that you got some time under your belt so you are excited to share some knowledge gained and you have cred now that you got some certificates. That's a great accomplishment. You also are coming across like you are explaining stuff to people that have made a career out of this nonsense. Honestly I think it's 90% wording. That doesn't mean shut up and color in the corner. But more like hey im curious about this, I read on Wikipedia and I was wondering those with 330 experience can shed some light on what might not be in the article. Hell @JordanD just talked about the level of understanding he has as a 320 typed pilot but caveated it with not knowing the 330.

Idk • about airbuses, that's ok. I'm not going to tell Dough about the 350 but I might text him pictures of his sexy beast making my girl look tiny.

 

[ASpilot2be]

If people aren't getting what you're trying to say, maybe it's time to tweak how you say things. It's a great lesson to learn, and wish more people would learn it. It's a huge part of CRM.

Maybe I did learn something in command training!

 

[touch-n-go]

Long interview, but Captain Behnam advocating for more hand flying after the emergency he had to deal with....

 

[BobDDuck]

I might text him pictures of his sexy beast making my girl look tiny.

I mean... who hasn't been there before.

 

[Roger Roger]

I guess my mentality bridges the gap. Understanding the automation (and using it correctly) is important a lot of the time. Busy airspace, 2 eyes looking outside is better than one. Bad weather, that’s just an obvious scenario. But I guess maybe it is unique to our shop, maybe not, but I’d say the amount of CA’s that have encouraged me to fully hand fly during a low tasking arrival/visual approach has been greater than 90%. Even F/Ds off (gasp) in some instances. Purpose being to give me a chance to get an actual feel for the airplane. I’ll say that definitely paid off when i flew a whole day of legs on an A/T inop jet. Never know when some malfunction is going to require a bit more feel for the airplane than you get in training/OE (though OE definitely started this trend). I can think of a recent trip where i hand flew a visual arrival into PSP, and that experience really showed me a particular example of what gear down, F5, and clean maneuver speed can do for you when ATC dumps you off high. Obviously not something one would do in instrument conditions, but it was cool to see her come down like the stories of 727s tell. I’m also very used to flying an airplane with no automation of any significance, so i realize this is my happy place. The real learning has been the automation, and i do equally feel that it requires a lot of skill to manage appropriately (especially in this jalopy). For all the hate, i really do like flying it, automated or otherwise.

But do you click the autopilot off abeam ANC on downwind and keep your visual inside Fire Island?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

@mikecweb I don’t have any time in type but I know enough that the MD11 is a POS.








For those who don’t know, the wink face is an emoji that is implying “just a joke - not serious.”

 

[///AMG]

But do you click the autopilot off abeam ANC on downwind and keep your visual inside Fire Island?

This is a challenge yes? If so, I accept sir

 

[///AMG]

my A model A-10 had a 16 waypoint capacity INS back in my day. And HUD was recorded via a 3/4” tape cassette, and later an 8mm

Hah •, the A/B Hornets had the 3/4” tapes....looked like a beta cassette. Don’t even get me started on the 8mm tape racks we had to hump onto the boat, up like 4+ flights of shipboard ladders. These were big pro grade AV racks, with 4 decks and a TV and switcher integrated, weighed probably 150-200 lb each. Apparently at the end of my (first Charlie) squadron’s last cruise before decomissioning, they just threw them off the flight deck into the Atlantic (sans tapes of course). Such a pain in the ass.

 

[///AMG]

Words on a screen, be it here on text can sometimes get misconstrued. Am I eager to learn, yes. But like that famous 80's commercial where the kid tells his dad that he learned it all from watching you. That being you all. I've learned a lot here. I have a pretty great photographic memory. I've been on this site for greater than ten years. I've listen, wrote stuff down committed stuff said here over the years to memory.

TLDR

If you have written down anything i have said on paper, please burn those papers. It was all bulls***

 

[mikecweb]

@mikecweb I don’t have any time in type but I know enough that the MD11 is a POS.








For those who don’t know, the wink face is an emoji that is implying “just a joke - not serious.”

Just so you can get an accurate picture of the look of disappointment i'm giving you right now.... You know when you fly home to Michigan to see family, and you're too cheap to buy a ticket and then bitch about the services provided on your free ride. Once you get there and you meet with your family and someone gets introduced to you and they ask "Oh what kind of doctor are you?" and you say no i'm a pilot in California for an airline with a different state's name. That "oh that's nice" look they give. That's the one.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Automation is a tool. If it’s not doing what you want, lower the level of automation - all the way back to hand flying if you have to, to correct the flight path and energy state of the airplane. Too many people get sucked into poking at buttons, heads down trying to make the computer bend to their will. I’d rather hear “click click” and see them take control of the airplane. You know, like a pilot.

Funny, because Airbus specifically tells you to NOT do this, despite me hearing it many times in my career. It’s still my default, but when something happens that causes me to turn off the automation, I try to see if Airbus has a procedure for it after the fact.

Management of Overspeed Events in Cruise | Safety First

Modern aircraft operate at high altitude and close to their high speed limits. As a consequence, temporary overspeed events can occur in cruise in changing wind conditions.Analysis of in-service data shows the need to remind the appropriate techniques to manage such temporary overspeed and avoid...

safetyfirst.airbus.com

 

[JordanD]

Funny, because Airbus specifically tells you to NOT do this, despite me hearing it many times in my career. It’s still my default, but when something happens that causes me to turn off the automation, I try to see if Airbus has a procedure for it after the fact.

Management of Overspeed Events in Cruise | Safety First

Modern aircraft operate at high altitude and close to their high speed limits. As a consequence, temporary overspeed events can occur in cruise in changing wind conditions.Analysis of in-service data shows the need to remind the appropriate techniques to manage such temporary overspeed and avoid...

safetyfirst.airbus.com

I bet a lot of those would be easier to prevent if their stupid thrust levers would move with autothrust engaged. They can recommend that it stays engaged 100% of the time but there’s plenty of times where it sucks and having the ability to “help” along would be beneficial rather than being forced with having to disengage it altogether.

 

[inigo88]

Ive flown both... Hand flying a Bus = 737 in CWS. Pretty much.

Funny, because Airbus specifically tells you to NOT do this, despite me hearing it many times in my career. It’s still my default, but when something happens that causes me to turn off the automation, I try to see if Airbus has a procedure for it after the fact.

Management of Overspeed Events in Cruise | Safety First

Modern aircraft operate at high altitude and close to their high speed limits. As a consequence, temporary overspeed events can occur in cruise in changing wind conditions.Analysis of in-service data shows the need to remind the appropriate techniques to manage such temporary overspeed and avoid...

safetyfirst.airbus.com

 

[alaskadrifter]

View attachment 69691

That about sums it up.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Just so you can get an accurate picture of the look of disappointment i'm giving you right now.... You know when you fly home to Michigan to see family, and you're too cheap to buy a ticket and then bitch about the services provided on your free ride. Once you get there and you meet with your family and someone gets introduced to you and they ask "Oh what kind of doctor are you?" and you say no i'm a pilot in California for an airline with a different state's name. That "oh that's nice" look they give. That's the one.

Can I improve your look by throwing in a bid package and stale cold thermos coffee?

Speaking of disappointing others, at least I’m not flying boxes so I’m a commercial pilot!

 

[killbilly]

The amount of planes I see given a vector to intercept, make the turn to the heading, only to suddenly start making a hard left/right towards the IAF is too damn high.

Not having seen your exact situation, this may not be of value....but the World's Most Modern Obsolete Aircraft our airplanes have a Honeywell FMS that frequently does a dance called The Honeywell Shuffle. It usually happens when it's trying to intercept a LOC and it tends to slalom around for a while until it finally captures. I've learned several techniques to minimize it, but they're all mitigating, because you never know for sure if the damn thing is going to do it.

So if we ever come back to EWR and you see us doing that, you'll know why.

I saw one dude with a Tombstone-style duster in ICN.

I learned recently that these dusters are also called Rifle Frock Coats.

Stating this fact makes me feel a bit like @Minuteman but with less Capybara.

Just so you can get an accurate picture of the look of disappointment i'm giving you right now.... You know when you fly home to Michigan to see family, and you're too cheap to buy a ticket and then bitch about the services provided on your free ride. Once you get there and you meet with your family and someone gets introduced to you and they ask "Oh what kind of doctor are you?" and you say no i'm a pilot in California for an airline with a different state's name. That "oh that's nice" look they give. That's the one.

The sheer subtle brilliance of this post cannot be overstated. Bravo, sir. Bravo indeed.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

I bet a lot of those would be easier to prevent if their stupid thrust levers would move with autothrust engaged. They can recommend that it stays engaged 100% of the time but there’s plenty of times where it sucks and having the ability to “help” along would be beneficial rather than being forced with having to disengage it altogether.

The idea here isn’t to keep it engaged 100%, but in this specific instance, selecting speed instead of turning off auto thrust at cruise is preferred, for a number of reasons.