Oh Qatar

///AMG said:
Well i think intentional “raw data” approaches/nav are sufficiently outside the realm of any useful “practice”. Nobody wins in that situation.
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CC might know this, but I seem to recall years ago that one of AS’s CQ was based on flying raw data ILS’s due to a crew struggling with doing one for real down in SoCal.

mid-2010’s perhaps
 
@derg I gonna make you fly the A350 with no FDs, no AP, no AT, downgraded to Direct Law.



[doesn't blink]

"Is that all?"





"No... the coffee makers are all in-op."




captain-holt-chair.gif
 
SurferLucas said:
CC might know this, but I seem to recall years ago that one of AS’s CQ was based on flying raw data ILS’s due to a crew struggling with doing one for real down in SoCal.

mid-2010’s perhaps
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I heard from a friend that this is still a maneuver completed a couple times in MT sims. Perhaps that was the impetus?
 
SurferLucas said:
CC might know this, but I seem to recall years ago that one of AS’s CQ was based on flying raw data ILS’s due to a crew struggling with doing one for real down in SoCal.

mid-2010’s perhaps
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Pretty sure we have to do that during upgrade here, and people struggle with it.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Come on.

And what about when flying in cruise and the airplane decides LNAV and heading mode are just gonna take a vacation. Cruising a good 5 hrs into the flight. Blehh Blehh Blehh as the AP kicks off. What happened? Somehow entered CWS R (control wheel steering - roll) for the lateral mode. AP gone.

Weird.

Try to re-engage AP. No dice.

Try to re-engage LNAV, no dice. Try to engage Heading, no dice. AP again, no dice. AP on CWS, no dice.

Ok. Flight Directors off. Lets put the master back on CA side. Now engage LNAV, VNAV, AP on. VNAV takes but no lateral mode. Still no Heading or LNAV. Still no AP. Ok, Flight Directors off again. Lets put FO side as master and put the FD on again. Re-engage modes. Lateral mode doesn't take. Still no AP.

AT stayed on whole time.

But! But! In slum's world, this situation can't exist. The AP and automation is supposed to always work.



End result, continued flight under manual control after discussion with dispatch. Frankly no mood to divert to a place neither had been to before (Managua). Not too far from LIB and familiar there with nice, clear VMC conditions.

And by the way, VNAV engaged, so had one pink magenta bar for following VNAV guidance, but nothing for LNAV. No lateral guidance bar. Used the wind vector, the track on the ND, and the heading bug to keep on course - all manually. You know, fly the damn plane.


Oh the manatee!





*MCP Lockout QRH was considered but the conditions listed in the QRH didn't match lockout. No CBs pulled.
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You mean a system failed in an airplane and you had to deal with it? Sort of like an engine failure, or an explosive decompression? Wow!

Engines fail and we need to be prepared for it, but that doesn’t mean that we intentionally shut down engines with passengers on board just for practice. That’s what a sim is for. An autopilot failure is an extremely unusual situation (I never experienced one in a fourteen year career). The idea that this is more difficult a situation to deal with than a V1 cut so you need to practice it constantly in revenue ops is patently absurd. These are just excuses. The reality is you just want to do it because either 1) it’s fun for you, or 2) it’s an ego thing. Neither is an acceptable reason to add additional risk to an unsuspecting family’s trip.
 
What risk do you believe hand flying poses in visual conditions? I’ll see your 14 years and raise you another thirteen. I’ve had numerous failures of the autopilot or its components on a variety of platforms over the years. But even if I didn’t, I don’t want to be so reliant on the automation that I lose the ability fly the airplane if the poop hits the fan. It’s the least I can do for the folks in back. On a visual day I’ll hand fly to FL180, and on arrival, typically hand fly visual approaches once cleared. I usually agree with most things you say (although sometimes not how you choose to say them) but I think you’re out in left field on this one.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
What risk do you believe hand flying poses in visual conditions?
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Distraction is always a risk, and it’s far more likely to cause problems when not using the automation. The automation is there for a reason. It improves SA by allowing you to monitor instead of having to be constantly involved in physically operating the appliance. Is the increased risk significant? No. But neither would be shutting down an engine in flight for practice. Both are stupid ideas. There is never a valid reason to voluntarily increase risk unnecessarily with revenue passengers in back.

I’ll see your 14 years and raise you another thirteen. I’ve had numerous failures of the autopilot or its components on a variety of platforms over the years.
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Yes, and I had engine failures. Didn’t mean it would be justified to start shutting down engines on every tenth flight just for practice. That’s what sims are for.

I usually agree with most things you say (although sometimes not how you choose to say them) but I think you’re out in left field on this one.
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That’s because you’re clinging to the past, just like Vanderburgh.
 
Ethiopian 302
Air France 447
Colgan 3407
Asiana 214
Atlas 3591…

Todd is wrong. At the end of the day, we are pilots first. Punching the autopilot switch over and over again hoping that it’ll engage is a big red flag that you should get the airplane flight path and energy state under control FIRST. Then reengage automation. When all else fails, be able to fly the airplane. One hand flown approach each year in the simulator isn’t enough.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Ethiopian 302
Air France 447
Colgan 3407
Asiana 214
Atlas 3591…

Todd is wrong. At the end of the day, we are pilots first. Punching the autopilot switch over and over again hoping that it’ll engage is a big red flag that you should get the airplane flight path and energy state under control FIRST. Then reengage automation. When all else fails, be able to fly the airplane. One hand flown approach each year in the simulator isn’t enough.
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None of these cases are instances of people needing to be better at hand flying. Not a single one.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
How many hours do you have in one?
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230.7. Enough to know it's merde

ZapBrannigan said:
On a visual day I’ll hand fly to FL180
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So you chase around a magenta flight director for 15 minutes while the autothrottles are in CLB, I don't think that really develops a skill.

Day VMC with FDs off and it's not too busy, knock yourself out. Just brief what you're gonna do first and dont load up the PM.
 
SlumTodd_Millionaire said:
You mean a system failed in an airplane and you had to deal with it? Sort of like an engine failure, or an explosive decompression? Wow!

Engines fail and we need to be prepared for it, but that doesn’t mean that we intentionally shut down engines with passengers on board just for practice. That’s what a sim is for. An autopilot failure is an extremely unusual situation (I never experienced one in a fourteen year career). The idea that this is more difficult a situation to deal with than a V1 cut so you need to practice it constantly in revenue ops is patently absurd. These are just excuses. The reality is you just want to do it because either 1) it’s fun for you, or 2) it’s an ego thing. Neither is an acceptable reason to add additional risk to an unsuspecting family’s trip.
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I think the risk isn’t that the autopilot fails, but that any one of a variety of mistakes or errors from other automated (or humanoid) systems makes the autopilot command something unexpected. GIGO, triple-F U, etc..
 
ZapBrannigan said:
What risk do you believe hand flying poses in visual conditions? I’ll see your 14 years and raise you another thirteen. I’ve had numerous failures of the autopilot or its components on a variety of platforms over the years. But even if I didn’t, I don’t want to be so reliant on the automation that I lose the ability fly the airplane if the poop hits the fan. It’s the least I can do for the folks in back. On a visual day I’ll hand fly to FL180, and on arrival, typically hand fly visual approaches once cleared. I usually agree with most things you say (although sometimes not how you choose to say them) but I think you’re out in left field on this one.
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may be airplane specific. Hand flying an airbus to 180 has very little value other than perhaps fighting boredom.
“Click click” I’ve seen the video, I think AA is even responsible for it. I understand it and agree with it to a level. To me, if you are down to that level on the bus the PMs hair should be standing up on his/her neck and sitting upright. Getting that level of being in the “red” or behind the airplane should be a massive warning flag.
 
Kingairer said:
may be airplane specific. Hand flying an airbus to 180 has very little value other than perhaps fighting boredom.
“Click click” I’ve seen the video, I think AA is even responsible for it. I understand it and agree with it to a level. To me, if you are down to that level on the bus the PMs hair should be standing up on his/her neck and sitting upright. Getting that level of being in the “red” or behind the airplane should be a massive warning flag.
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I admittedly have never flown the Bus. The most advanced airplane on my resume is the E190.
 
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