NTSB chief laments omission of cargo planes in FAA pilot fatigue rules

[derg]

NTSB chief laments omission of cargo planes in FAA pilot fatigue rules
By Keith Laing - 12/21/11 02:32 PM ET
National Transportation Safety Board Chairwoman Deborah Hersman said Wednesday that she liked the Federal Aviation Administration's new scheduling rules for avoiding fatigue among commercial airline pilots, but she wished the rules applied to cargo flights as well.

Hersman said in statement that the new FAA rules were "a huge improvement over the status quo for large passenger-carrying operations."

But she quickly added "a tired pilot is a tired pilot, whether there are 10 paying customers on board or 100, whether the payload is passengers or pallets."

"We are extremely disappointed that the new rule is limited to Part 121 carriers," she said.

Hersman said the NTSB has been recommending that transportation officials address pilot fatigue since 1990.

"Over the first century of powered flight, countless accidents trace pilot fatigue as a contributing factor," she said. "As the FAA said in its draft, 'Fatigue threatens aviation safety because it increases the risk of pilot error that could lead to an accident.' This is particularly a concern for crews that fly 'on the back side of the clock.' "

Still, Hersman, who has recently made news with a recommendation of her own that all cellphone use in cars be outlawed, said she was "pleased" with the FAA's announcement.

"Secretary LaHood and former FAA Administrator [Randy] Babbitt have worked for years to shepherd this contentious rule through the process," she said. "We applaud the leadership of DOT and FAA for bringing it across the finish line."

Under the new rules, pilots would be required to get at least 10 hours of off-duty time between flight schedules, which transportation officials said would give them at least the opportunity to get eight hours of sleep before they get to the cockpit.

Pilots would also be limited to no more than nine hours of "flight time," which is considered by the FAA to be any time an airplane is moving on its own power, even if it is on the ground at airport. Pilots would be limited to 28 working days in a month.

Airlines will be given two years to comply with the new rules.

 

[jtrain609]

The NTSB would also ban commuting, for what it's worth.

 

[jynxyjoe]

The NTSB would also ban commuting, for what it's worth.

No matter if it's a 3 hour car drive, or a 3 hour commute from Alpena to DTW (drive to airport, tsa, get on plane, fly to DTW, wait 15 minutes for rampies, wait 10 more minutes for gate agent, get off plane) pilots are taking passengers lives in their hands.

Pilots should live on cots at the airport.

 

[jtrain609]

No matter if it's a 3 hour car drive, or a 3 hour commute from Alpena to DTW (drive to airport, tsa, get on plane, fly to DTW, wait 15 minutes for rampies, wait 10 more minutes for gate agent, get off plane) pilots are taking passengers lives in their hands.

Pilots should live on cots at the airport.

Agreed. At least when I have a cot at the airport, I'll be able to devote my full salary to the costs of my impending divorce. It's a win/win for the company, and I'm a company man!

 

[Matt13C]

The NTSB would also ban commuting, for what it's worth.

Would that be a terrible thing? I know it is a great benefit to be able to live in one place and go to work in another, but if safety is the number one concern, is this really a practice pilots should cling to? Seems to ring of "only if it doesnt affect me". I want a pilot about to fly me anywhere to have had a good nights sleep the night before. They will now have a much better chance at accomplishing that while on a trip. However, before the trip it is still on them. The co-pilot would still be tired even with the new rules as she red eyed from Seattle to EWR. We all know how hard it is to sleep on a plane, let alone get 8 solid hours of restful sleep.

Also, if it was outlawed, then airlines might act a bit more respectable and pay some relocation costs, possibly.

Side note, with the black site layout you cant read the text in your post without highlighting it Doug.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Would that be a terrible thing? I know it is a great benefit to be able to live in one place and go to work in another, but if safety is the number one concern, is this really a practice pilots should cling to? Seems to ring of "only if it doesnt affect me". I want a pilot about to fly me anywhere to have had a good nights sleep the night before. They will now have a much better chance at accomplishing that while on a trip. However, before the trip it is still on them. The co-pilot would still be tired even with the new rules as she red eyed from Seattle to EWR. We all know how hard it is to sleep on a plane, let alone get 8 solid hours of restful sleep.

Also, if it was outlawed, then airlines might act a bit more respectable and pay some relocation costs, possibly.

Side note, with the black site layout you cant read the text in your post without highlighting it Doug.

Hint: Commuting for work does not mean SEA to EWR every time.

I'm curious Matt, what if it's a four hour drive from NW Arkansas (with traffic) but only a 2 hour commute (park, TSA, get on plane, off plane) from TUP to MEM? What is your definition of commute? Remember "We all know how hard it is to sleep on a plane car drive".

By the way Matt, your new base is LGA and you make 24300 base pay. How much you want to bet that I'll get infinitely more sleep than you living and commuting from CHS to LGA than you will living in Williamsburg NY in the basement of a hotel on a cot with two of your friends. You are right though, you are doing the right thing living in base.

Except when you get shot in Williamsburg, that's your fault. Luckily we have another guy dying for your job, but this is the 4th guy this week and I'm getting tired of you pilots costing our training department so much money. Get your parents to buy you a place in Manhattan!

 

[jtrain609]

Would that be a terrible thing? I know it is a great benefit to be able to live in one place and go to work in another, but if safety is the number one concern, is this really a practice pilots should cling to? Seems to ring of "only if it doesnt affect me". I want a pilot about to fly me anywhere to have had a good nights sleep the night before. They will now have a much better chance at accomplishing that while on a trip. However, before the trip it is still on them. The co-pilot would still be tired even with the new rules as she red eyed from Seattle to EWR. We all know how hard it is to sleep on a plane, let alone get 8 solid hours of restful sleep.

Also, if it was outlawed, then airlines might act a bit more respectable and pay some relocation costs, possibly.

Side note, with the black site layout you cant read the text in your post without highlighting it Doug.

I commute DTW-EWR, it's blocked at 1 hour and 20 minutes most days.

I've never gotten less than 8 hours of sleep prior to starting a pairing, because I'll commute in the day before and get a hotel on my own dime.

Many commuters are incredibly responsible about their commute.

 

[Matt13C]

Hint: Commuting for work does not mean SEA to EWR every time.

I'm curious Matt, what if it's a four hour drive from NW Arkansas (with traffic) but only a 2 hour commute (park, TSA, get on plane, off plane) from TUP to MEM? What is your definition of commute? Remember "We all know how hard it is to sleep on a plane car drive".

By the way Matt, your new base is LGA and you make 24300 base pay. How much you want to bet that I'll get infinitely more sleep than you living and commuting from CHS to LGA than you will living in Williamsburg NY in the basement of a hotel on a cot with two of your friends. You are right though, you are doing the right thing living in base.

Except when you get shot in Williamsburg, that's your fault. Luckily we have another guy dying for your job, but this is the 4th guy this week and I'm getting tired of you pilots costing our training department so much money. Get your parents to buy you a place in Manhattan!

I understand that, Joe. But obviously that is a commute that some people make. Would you argue that what Rebecca did was safe, even though it was legal? Legally, you can commute from OGG-EWR if you wanted to then hop on a plane and fly for 16 hours.

Sure, some guys like Train can get from home to their office in 1:20, does that mean everyone can? Should rules be based off the best case scenario in hopes that people don't push it?

I commute DTW-EWR, it's blocked at 1 hour and 20 minutes most days.

I've never gotten less than 8 hours of sleep prior to starting a pairing, because I'll commute in the day before and get a hotel on my own dime.

Many commuters are incredibly responsible about their commute.

I am happy to hear they are, and I wouldn't want to completely remove the practice. I just think that being allowed to commute across the country then board a plane a few hours later to fly for a full day is unsafe. Maybe they should make it so you need to fly in the day before, as you do.

There are obviously commuters who do so responsibly and then those that do it irresponsibly. I simply feel that if pilots are really behind safety and not simply using it as a tool to stick it to the airlines and management, then there are some practices in commuting that should be removed.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I had a crashpad in Queens when I was with USAir and based in LGA. Rode to work on the bus.

Nothing scarier than boarding a bus in uniform with luggage at 5am and seeing all of your fellow bus patrons staring at you...

Yikes! I know that's off topic.

Matt,

Do you live in NW Arkansas? I'm in Bella Vista. Still off topic.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I understand that, Joe. But obviously that is a commute that some people make. Would you argue that what Rebecca did was safe, even though it was legal? Legally, you can commute from OGG-EWR if you wanted to then hop on a plane and fly for 16 hours.

Sure, some guys like Train can get from home to their office in 1:20, does that mean everyone can? Should rules be based off the best case scenario in hopes that people don't push it?

You keep on saying legally, you'll have to refer me to a legal language for commuting. If you can give me an idea where I'm looking for it in the CFR's I can find it myself don't worry about a link.

The whole question is actually responsible pilot behavior, not commuting. Did Rebecca commute in a safe manner, did she act responsibility? Absolutely not, but I bet she's done it before and been alright, a lot of this probably has to do with her being sick as a dog. She was fatigued and thusly made bad decisions while fatigued. An event that will continue to happen and the new regs won't do anything about it. You comfortably duck all my questions. I guess in return I should duck all of yours?

Actually Train was not saying he could get from the home to the "office" in 1:20, he's talking about a leg time.

By rules, you mean laws, and each one (when created) is complex and should reflect that complexity. Furthermore, an intelligent person will look at your gripes and say "well obviously Matt feels people should simply be more responsible, and he's using the commuting as an example. Certainly Matt has woken up in the jumpseat of Fedex with both pilots napping, because they refused to adjust their sleep schedule while home. Could be to take care of the family dog who is sick (TLH crash) or to spend more time with the kids. Obviously 'coin' isn't a problem for those pilots, so we see the same event with wildly different pay scales. It makes a lot more sense to simply outlaw irresponsible pilot behavior. Of course I don't know how we'd have the FAA enforce it, but let's face it, the FAA doesn't enforce the laws they do have on the books until someone crashes so I think we should do this. Someone get a Mission Accomplished banner!"

You probably better get a handle on what you're trying to make illegal exactly. I don't see pilots putting up with moving bases every five-ten years when the airline changes it's mind about "the long partnership with this fine city", nor when it shuffles the equipment around from base to base every 5-10. I've talked to fed's in the jumpseat about this, as well as ALPA reps and it's always the same thing, the FAA knows they can't regulate pilot jumpseating to work any more than they can stop me from starting my drive into work at 2am to make my 6:15a showtime for the MEM-SLC leg followed by a 6 hour sit, then MEM-GEG.

 

[jtrain609]

Sure, some guys like Train can get from home to their office in 1:20, does that mean everyone can? Should rules be based off the best case scenario in hopes that people don't push it?

I also used to commute SLC-EWR, which was a 4.5 hour flight. Again, I came in the day before, didn't take the red eye (when it was still running), and got 8 hours of sleep before starting my pairings.

You know what ruined back then? Scheduling. I'd bid a noon callout so I could stick as close as possible to mountain time, and scheduling would constantly give me trips with 5:00 a.m. wakeups the entire trip. Or worse, they'd toss me between pairings that had a 5:00 a.m. wakeup one day, then a 5:00 p.m. wakeup the next day.

THOSE were fatiguing, not the commute.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

 

[jynxyjoe]

...

THOSE were fatiguing, not the commute.

That's a good point too. Getting on the pilot's asses about their commute time while we allowing 5am shows on the east coast for central time zone pilots (yes that's where our base is) for a long day of flying seems stupid. I feel bad for the SLC guys on the -900 who are doing 4 or 5 am shows on the east coast. *shiver*

 

[jtrain609]

That's a good point too. Getting on the pilot's asses about their commute time while we allowing 5am shows on the east coast for central time zone pilots (yes that's where our base is) for a long day of flying seems stupid. I feel bad for the SLC guys on the -900 who are doing 4 or 5 am shows on the east coast. *shiver*

That's nothing.

We do Halifax and St. Johns, which is in Atlantic time and a half hour past Atlantic time, respectively. Even living in eastern time, it's fairly horrid waking up at 3:30 a.m. for a 4:30 a.m. van, meaning you're really waking up at 2:30 or possibly 2:00 a.m.

Oh and we can do 16 hours and 4 legs after that one. Awesome, safe.

 

[jynxyjoe]

That's nothing.

We do Halifax and St. Johns, which is in Atlantic time and a half hour past Atlantic time, respectively. Even living in eastern time, it's fairly horrid waking up at 3:30 a.m. for a 4:30 a.m. van, meaning you're really waking up at 2:30 or possibly 2:00 a.m.

Oh and we can do 16 hours and 4 legs after that one. Awesome, safe.

Of course it's safe.

STOP COMMUTING YOU YOU... -YOU GET OUTA HERE YOU!

 

[jtrain609]

So this gets into the discussion of AM/PM schedules. As far as I'm concerned, even if they destroy commutability on one side, it's all we should be doing for the entire month. Flip flopping from one side of the clock to the other is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[jynxyjoe]

So this gets into the discussion of AM/PM schedules. As far as I'm concerned, even if they destroy commutability on one side, it's all we should be doing for the entire month. Flip flopping from one side of the clock to the other is an accident waiting to happen.

One of our pairings for a while was GEG or some sort of SFO overnight and then you'd find yourself in BWI or DTW next, early shows, coming back to ABQ or PHX or some crap then back on home to MEM. Holy crap what a joke. I think that's partly why I'm so forgiving of a lot of these commuters. Plus they are better at this insane wakeup times and lack of sleep than me, practice practice practice.

Shortly after my downgrade we started doing something close to 37 departures out of SLC and the company decided after a year or so of flying there maybe we finally needed a place to call home, like a crew room or something. Someone had the genius idea of tossing us down with the mainline (we were wholly owned at that time). If it wasn't the angry stares, it was some jackass that would walk past you saying "If I find your crap here and your not here watching it you can find it in lost and found." I always had to hand it to the guys who would walk down there anyway, pick one of those recliners by the TV and sack out for an hour or so sleeping. Less stress for me just to sleep upstairs in full view of the passengers. I like to keep our image professional.

Best part of all that nonsense was about 2 months later when Delta gave us away to Pinnacle, hehe, no more crew room boys, go forth and rest! God I love Delta.

 

[Louie1975]

How the heck could you ban commuting? At my airline we opened a base and 6 months or so later announced it's closure. Pilots are supposed to uproot there lives and families whenever a base opens and closes? That's pretty fatiguing.

Also...you can't completely legislate fatigue. You may do the responsible thing and commute in to your crash pad the day before and then....someone next to you is snoring. Loudly.

 

[gotWXdagain]

You can't legislate away fatigue because once the FAA legislates in favor of Crash Pads the city shuts them down because they violate housing codes.

 

[Nick]

Would that be a terrible thing? I know it is a great benefit to be able to live in one place and go to work in another, but if safety is the number one concern, is this really a practice pilots should cling to? Seems to ring of "only if it doesnt affect me". I want a pilot about to fly me anywhere to have had a good nights sleep the night before. They will now have a much better chance at accomplishing that while on a trip. However, before the trip it is still on them. The co-pilot would still be tired even with the new rules as she red eyed from Seattle to EWR. We all know how hard it is to sleep on a plane, let alone get 8 solid hours of restful sleep.

Also, if it was outlawed, then airlines might act a bit more respectable and pay some relocation costs, possibly.

Side note, with the black site layout you cant read the text in your post without highlighting it Doug.

Matt -- mentally 'zoom out' and think more about the big picture.

I'll give you an example.

I live 25 minutes from the employee parking lot of the airport I'm based at. I kick my roommate's cat off my bed and close my bedroom door 60 minutes prior to report time.

That's about as close as you can get, right?

What if I non-rev to Asia for 12 days and leave myself no recovery period for time zones and simply hop right back on a PM trip at work?

I'd be ready to fall asleep around 5-6PM and wake up at 2AM the first day home. In fact this is exactly what I do in this scenario, every time.

But if I showed up to work for a trip at 3PM that flies a few flights and gets to the layover at midnight, that would be the equivalent of a redeye...multiple flights right through my circadian low would be even worse than just one leg though.

So, you can see, it has nothing to do with where you live. It has everything to do with just making sure you're in good enough shape when you show up.

As long as CDOs are legal and will still be legal with the new rules in two years, nobody has any room to be talking about commuting issues.