Northwest Overshoot / Cert Action....

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Slugger said:
Reading the letters the FAA sent to them gets me angry for some reason.
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I read them, doesn't get me angry at all. "Dereliction of duty" is a term I remember well from my military days. One I still take pretty seriously.

I didn't always like the "work rules" in the military, but that was never an excuse for failing to fulfill the responsibility you have in command, being responsible for others.

I manage not to bust clearances flying part 91 IFR, there really is no excuse you can make for it happening in this case.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Inverted said:
I have ever seen somebody with a Commercial SEL that has a Private Multi. They would do a Commercial add on for the MEL...
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I'll be doing a Commercial MEL add-on to a Commercial Glider in a few months...

But yeah, I have yet to meet a private MEL with a C-ASEL so far. I'm sure there is one out there somewhere.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Inverted said:
I have ever seen somebody with a Commercial SEL that has a Private Multi. They would do a Commercial add on for the MEL...
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Tell yah what. If you want to see it, I can scan a picture of my certificate in. Did it this summer.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Inverted said:
I have ever [never?] seen somebody with a Commercial SEL that has a Private Multi. They would do a Commercial add on for the MEL...
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I have, but that's irrelevant. I was making a larger point and the particulars don't matter much. If you prefer, there are lots of pilots with a Commercial MEL, but no Commercial SEL, yet who have Private SEL privileges. Or Private seaplane privileges or whatever.

That's why most forms you fill out request your "highest" certificate, not just "your certificate."
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Slugger said:
Then why does anybody work for the FAA department that deals with the revocations, etc.? We could just have a computer there and not waste taxpayer dollars. A robot could probably do just as well as a human and wouldn't cost any money.
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The "Threat and Error Matrix" came to fruition when it seemed like "Airline A" was getting an inordinate amount of time to take care of airworthiness directives. Then the floodgates opened and there was a political decision made to give a 'one size fits all' to enforcement actions.

Sadly, it's meant to be fairly automatic.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

tgrayson said:
I have, but that's irrelevant. I was making a larger point and the particulars don't matter much.
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I think we all understood what you were saying.

The bigger point - when you lose the certificate, you lose the other privileges too.

I'm just pissed I can't do my ATP in a glider, I'm gonna have those "commercial privileges" on there for the rest of my life. Good grief.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Slugger said:
but I don't like the way it's worded (mostly the word "you").
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Because it holds them personally accountable for their negligence?

I too, am curious about the ones who landed on the taxiway @ ATL.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

I thought this happened rather quickly, but I'm not surprised this happened. While I feel badly for the two pilots (retirement pensions, 401k, etc notwithstanding), I can see how this is justified. What if after flying so far away from your destination, you run out of enough fuel to reach the destination? And if ATC was trying to reach them for the longest (and it was being monitored by the White House) and you're not responding (and the radio works), that affects air traffic in the area!

And as stated before, the public statements were definitely unwise.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

stesta5074 said:
Get people up and down safely for 30000 hours, get canned on your 'first' mistake that hurt no one.

The average person in the public does nothing worth a damn all day compared to what these guys do. Sure, most people don't make mistakes that big... but that's because most people don't have any real responsibility to anything in the first place. Sitting in a cubicle thumbing your butt and writing TPS reports does not give you a voice on the qualifications of those that fly $100 million airplanes. At all.

This is a damned disgrace. There were many better options.
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I don't think it was very safe twiddling around on a laptop at 34,000 feet overflying your destination and not being in radio contact for 70 minutes. Maybe I am one of the few on here that thinks that it was more than just a "mistake." I am the first to defend pilots when stuff goes down, especially when the media takes a big bite for public consumption, but I think these guys DO deserve to lose their licenses, and get terminated. If anything, they undermine the guys that do fly their machines safely.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

ILSstud said:
I am the first to defend pilots when stuff goes down, especially when the media takes a big bite for public consumption, but I think these guys DO deserve to lose their licenses, and get terminated.
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I think I said it before, but the old Navy term is "Screwed the pooch"

That's what these turkeys did, they aren't going to fly for an airline again. Ever.

Worrying about BS like bidding for next month is exactly what they should not have been doing. Flying an airplane is what they were there to do.

We might complain that it is a job that doesn't get much respect anymore, but it is a job that has very high expectations.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

tgrayson said:
I have, but that's irrelevant. I was making a larger point and the particulars don't matter much. If you prefer, there are lots of pilots with a Commercial MEL, but no Commercial SEL, yet who have Private SEL privileges. Or Private seaplane privileges or whatever.

That's why most forms you fill out request your "highest" certificate, not just "your certificate."
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This is an interesting academic debate, but I believe you only have 1 pilot certificate.

I had a private AS&MEL rating when I took an initial commercial checkride in an ASEL. At the end, my certificate said:

II. Commercial Pilot
XII. Ratings: Commercial Pilot, Airplane Single & Multiengine Land
XII. Limitations: Multiengine limited to Private Pilot privileges

As such, I think you have one pilot certificate. In my case it was a commercial certificate, although I didn't have commercial privileges in every category/class I held privileges in.
 
Re: DeltaWest Overshoots Destination....

drunkenbeagle said:
I think I said it before, but the old Navy term is "Screwed the pooch"

That's what these turkeys did, they aren't going to fly for an airline again. Ever.

Worrying about BS like bidding for next month is exactly what they should not have been doing. Flying an airplane is what they were there to do.

We might complain that it is a job that doesn't get much respect anymore, but it is a job that has very high expectations.
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Both the FE and the FO from the NW 727 crew are FO's at AA. Never say Never.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Remember we are the most scrutinized profession there is. If the findings made in the FAA revocation letters represent the truth, this certainly qualifies for careless and reckless operation of an aircraft. Some have sought criminal charges in this case; I think that's going a little too far, but to be barred from flying for one year is justified. No excuse. Have modern airliners really become so advanced that people have become this complacent? They just don't give us enough fuel these days to cruise around for an extra hour and a half and have enough left over for contingencies; this could have turned out much different. I just don't see how this could have happened; how many things going on would you have to miss to duplicate this? Sad, sad thing to throw your career away over.

What I do wish is that the airline, the FAA, and the NTSB would keep the matter under close wraps until the investigation and disposition of the matter is complete. It's not fair that they be able to give the press up-to-the-minute updates on every detail of their investigation, while the two pilots involved have no logical choice but to keep quiet.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

On a side note, I love how the FAA is trying to be "proactive" because they are under the eye of the public and congress. So what do they do, less than a week and they revoke these guys tickets. Umm, how many airplanes and lives have we lost due to fatigue...and as far as I know, we haven't heard jack on that end. Why don't they become proactive on issues that need you to be proactive...
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

The media sure could have done a better job at redacting the letters though.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

aloft said:
Spoken like someone who hasn't put forth the effort and expense to acquire those certificates herself.

They screwed up, they lost their jobs, and that should be enough. The safety of their aircraft, crew and passengers wasn't jeopardized, so to render them unemployable is taking it too far. This is exactly the sort of thing suspension or even a 709 ride is for.
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Nope, spoken by someone who thinks they did something incredibly stupid, that's all. ;) I'm only a PPL, so I can't possibly understand anything about professional piloting.. MmmHmm. FWIW, these guys are getting raked on EagleLounge and most of them are saying they deserved the revocation too.

A few thoughts of mine: I do not think the DL guys who landed on the taxiway should have their certs revoked. They screwed up too, however, they had a check airman jumpseater with a medical emergency. While distracted by their medical emergency situation, they still flew the airplane! Yes they landed on a taxiway, but I [personal opinion] can give more leniency to that than completely disregarding and ignoring all flight duties for over and hour and overflying their destination city by 150m!
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Pilotdude3407 said:
On a side note, I love how the FAA is trying to be "proactive" because they are under the eye of the public and congress. So what do they do, less than a week and they revoke these guys tickets. Umm, how many airplanes and lives have we lost due to fatigue...and as far as I know, we haven't heard jack on that end. Why don't they become proactive on issues that need you to be proactive...
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:yeahthat:

How many more jets with fatigued low-time pilots at the helm need to crash this winter before they do something about that LARGER problem? It is horrible to say, but I guess it has to be something that will blitz the media enough for them to change it in an actual timely manner...Because winter is here, and not a damn thing has changed since people died in Buffalo.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Side note. . .secondary to all others but precipitating of course.

Is the dang scheduling software that hard to figure out? :eek:
 
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