Northwest Overshoot / Cert Action....

Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Clocks said:
Isn't that like saying "Drunk driving isn't reckless if you don't hit anything"?

(I'm not comparing alcohol to using a laptop, just that by pure accident/luck these guys DIDN'T cause something devastating doesn't mean it wasn't careless or reckless)
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I understand your thought. I would compare the recklessness of drunk driving more to falling asleep. Being on a laptop I guess I would compare more to texting or being on your cell while driving. Autopilot/cruise control. Yep, same loss of SA scenario. If you make that type of comparison, I would then understand the analogy. :)

. . .but again, suspension versus revocation. I'm not all clear.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

MFT1Air said:
. . .and I'll need some help here:

[/I]

They screwed up. Won't argue, however, personally, I do believe this infraction is not as bad as falling asleep. As a passenger, hypothethically. . .I'd be more relieved that they were significantly distracted vice snoring and drooling on their shirts.

[/I]

OK, again they missed many significant checkpoints, but just how "careless" were they? As subjective as it is, (and they were) my question about revocation vice suspension. . .where's the rationale? I mean, if they were fired by the company for regulation violations with a suspended certificate. . .again, who would hire them?
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Asleep may be a better more excusable "excuse." In the end nobody got hurt, so forget about which was potentially the more dangerous situation. Knowingly breaking regs is typically a worse offense than unknowingly deviating from norms.

Situation #1 = Pilot lands in snow, and during the roll out he decided to take a high speed turn off. He engaged the nosewheel steering a little too soon and one of the planes main wheels gets stuck in the mud in the turn-off. There is some metal bent.

Situation #2 = There is a full flight and a company mechanic wants to ride in the cockpit jumpseat to get home. This is against company policy, mechanics can only travel on the jumpseat when related to a company function. The pilot, mechanic and gate agent discuss it and the pilot says he'll bend the rules to let the mechanic on. Upon arriving at their destination company personal are made aware of the situation and the gate agent from the departure airport confirms the captain said he'd break the rule.

Situation #2 seems fairly innocent, nobody was going to get hurt, heck mechanics can even occupy the cockpit at times right? Situation #1 had the potential for a lot more danger, gear could have collapsed, ruptured tanks etc.

Which situation do you think would have the company and or Feds questioning the Captain's competence?
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

aloft said:
Spoken like someone who hasn't put forth the effort and expense to acquire those certificates herself.

They screwed up, they lost their jobs, and that should be enough. The safety of their aircraft, crew and passengers wasn't jeopardized, so to render them unemployable is taking it too far. This is exactly the sort of thing suspension or even a 709 ride is for.
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On a sidenote, I like your location!
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Baronman said:
Asleep may be a better more excusable "excuse." In the end nobody got hurt, so forget about which was potentially the more dangerous situation. Knowingly breaking regs is typically a worse offense than unknowingly deviating from norms.

Situation #1 = Pilot lands in snow, and during the roll out he decided to take a high speed turn off. He engaged the nosewheel steering a little too soon and one of the planes main wheels gets stuck in the mud in the turn-off. There is some metal bent.

Situation #2 = There is a full flight and a company mechanic wants to ride in the cockpit jumpseat to get home. This is against company policy, mechanics can only travel on the jumpseat when related to a company function. The pilot, mechanic and gate agent discuss it and the pilot says he'll bend the rules to let the mechanic on. Upon arriving at their destination company personal are made aware of the situation and the gate agent from the departure airport confirms the captain said he'd break the rule.

Situation #2 seems fairly innocent, nobody was going to get hurt, heck mechanics can even occupy the cockpit at times right? Situation #1 had the potential for a lot more danger, gear could have collapsed, ruptured tanks etc.

Which situation do you think would have the company and or Feds questioning the Captain's competence?
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Well, Sit#1 will attract both entities attention; Sit#2 is internal policy. Sit#1 would have both questioning competence. Sit#2. . .again, the company would question the captain's competence, for if he violated company policy, what other consideration as it relates to rules/regulation would he violate. . .if I were that involved in the minutia of the company policy.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

MFT1Air said:
Well, Sit#1 will attract both entities attention; Sit#2 is internal policy. Sit#1 would have both questioning competence. Sit#2. . .again, the company would question the captain's competence, for if he violated company policy, what other consideration as it relates to rules/regulation would he violate. . .if I were that involved in the minutia of the company policy.
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Situation 1 you'll most likely keep your job; situation 2, not so much....
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

MFT1Air said:
Well, Sit#1 will attract both entities attention; Sit#2 is internal policy. Sit#1 would have both questioning competence. Sit#2. . .again, the company would question the captain's competence, for if he violated company policy, what other consideration as it relates to rules/regulation would he violate. . .if I were that involved in the minutia of the company policy.
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Mmm...Internal Policy? Our Take Off mins are found in the same book which describes who is allowed cockpit access (among other things). It is both company policy and the way the Feds agree we shall operate as an airline. So no, it's not just an internal policy, it's an FAA endorsed policy and Flight Ops Manual.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

I guess my question is under what FAR did they revoke their license? Deviating from controllers instruction? They had no emergency so they had no reason to? Anyone one know exactly the reason for it?
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Jbroz04 said:
I guess my question is under what FAR did they revoke their license? Deviating from controllers instruction? They had no emergency so they had no reason to? Anyone one know exactly the reason for it?
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"Careless and Reckless..."
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Jbroz04 said:
I guess my question is under what FAR did they revoke their license? Deviating from controllers instruction? They had no emergency so they had no reason to? Anyone one know exactly the reason for it?
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The FAA got caught with it's pants around their ankle a few years ago with giving some airlines lenience and other airlines the iron fist so they've created a thing called a "Threat and Error Matrix".

If you do "A". "A" corresponds to a chart with phase of flight, willfulness and "other" and comes out with a 30, 60, 90, 180 day suspension, up to and including revocation.

They're getting the 'pimp stick' most likely because the FAA has a very public case (*cough* 24 hr news cycle *cough*) and they want to look like they're in control of things.

I'll bet you a dollar if this event wasn't as public as it is, they'd probably get a slap on the wrist.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

MFT1Air said:
:yeahthat:

Agree!
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Exactly.

What I'm getting at is these guys knowingly were using their computers when they knew they shouldn't have been. And it landed them in a very precarious situation. Similar to my jumpseat scenario.

Falling asleep (while potentially can be perilous) is an accidental deviation from norms. It happens to varying degrees but there is no disregard for procedure. Similar to my offroading in snow scenario.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

The problem with the "falling asleep" alibi is that they're going to look at your last layover. The hotel can provide information about when you slid your keycard to get into the room and the time lapse until the door opened prior to pickup.

Then they'd say, "Well, you had an 11 hour layover, were in your room by 11:39:42pm, left your room at 06:32:22 for a 6:45am pickup, why were you in you room so late?"

Now that's a whole different can of worms.

If they closed their hotel bar tab at 11:35pm... oh the possibilities.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

MFT1Air said:
:yeahthat:

No argument. . .and Doug can keep his dollar. No bet.
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The following IS NOT universal advice.

That's another reason why everyone advises keeping your mouth shut when something happens.

I remember when we lost the engine out of ORD a few years ago when I was on the MD-90. I could have said, on open tower frequency "Southernjets 1225! Mayday mayday! We've lost an engine! Need immediate vectors to 32L! Fuel on board 38 thousand four hundred, one hundred fifty one souls on board..."

Then there'd be every Tom, Dick and Harry with his aviation scanner calling in the news-chopperazzi, live footage on Fox and probably camera crews littering the terminal and traipsing the hotel looking for a quote.

Let them know you need to return to the airport, your requested runway and as little "dramatic to the general public" information as possible and that you'd like the trucks, just in case of a hot brake" :)

If it's not your union rep, flight control or maintenance, keep your mouth shut. That gate agent you tell "Holy cow, I thought we were gonna buy the farm!" is going to text his girlfriend, she's going to call the news and will quote you, most likely incorrectly. That bartender who is serving you a cocktail after your day of adventure is listening, and if the story is big enough, is in the backroom, talking on his cellphone to the local media about those two pilots, drinking, talking about what happened that day.

Rule #1: Shut the hell up.
Rule #2: Shut the hell up.
Rule #3: When in doubt, refer to Rule #1 and especially Rule #2
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

MFT1Air said:
I understand your thought. I would compare the recklessness of drunk driving more to falling asleep. Being on a laptop I guess I would compare more to texting or being on your cell while driving. Autopilot/cruise control. Yep, same loss of SA scenario. If you make that type of comparison, I would then understand the analogy. :)

. . .but again, suspension versus revocation. I'm not all clear.
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Yeah, certainly this could have been worse, but if it were my call I'd probably go the suspension or fired route, instead of revocation. Reason being: they probably would not repeat this kind of thing again. :dunno:
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

Do I think revocation is on the harsh side for what happened, given what we know so far, Sure.

Am I surprised, Absolutely not!

The news LOVES this sort of stuff.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

I thought revocation meant that not only do you get your certificates taken away, but you are barred from ever holding those qualifications again. How is this a punishment, when as someone mentioned before, the pilots can just take all the checkrides in a couple of days and be back up to their previous status? Sure, they won't have a job. But with that much experience I'm sure they could find something.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

MFT1Air said:
I would compare the recklessness of drunk driving more to falling asleep.
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While driving half asleep and driving tipsy may produce the same dangerous results, intentionally driving after drinking is both voluntary and inexcusable. Fatigue, on the other hand, is a physiological reality that can creep up on anyone unannounced.

I have some sympathy for these guys. There are two people in the world who will never get distracted or fall asleep on the cockpit, and they are not eligible to be airline pilots. I get it though, the FAA has to seem responsible, and that's just how the system works.
 
Re: Northwest Overshoot Pilots Lose Ticket

[SIZE=-1]I think the punishment was too harsh. They are well qualified to be pilots, and if they had only gotten their licenses temporarily suspended, they would never be on their laptops again in the cockpit. [/SIZE]

and

FAA Fail. They said it was 150 miles in their letter.
<table border="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td align="right">[SIZE=-1]"From[/SIZE]</td><td align="center">[SIZE=-1] KEAU-[/SIZE]</td><td valign="top">[SIZE=-1]Chippewa Valley Regional Airport[/SIZE]</td></tr> <tr valign="top"><td align="right">[SIZE=-1]To[/SIZE]</td><td align="center">[SIZE=-1] KMSP-[/SIZE]</td><td valign="top">[SIZE=-1]Minneapolis-St Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport[/SIZE]</td></tr> </tbody></table>
73.9 nautical miles W
[SIZE=-1]Initial true course: 271"


[/SIZE]​
 
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