Fins Up
Well-Known Member
It's all good. You can mooch a ride any time.
Non-Union airlines..
- Thread starter meritflyer
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It's all good. You can mooch a ride any time.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Do you perhaps mean. . .
MOCHA HAGoTDI ?
John out of Boston is a kick ass guy though. So long as we are speaking of the same John.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
yeah yeah, u spell better than me. yeah we are talking about the same john.
Bumblebee
Commodore
Cool . . . so you would suggest someone go to Mesa over SkyWest?That way they could sleep in the plane on standups. Good idea.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
well you can get hired places other than mesa.
this guy brings up a great point and i have no quick retort for it. it is embarrassing to me as a union member that mesa lets management get away with that crap. but i don't work for old mesa. add a "ba" on the end.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I've got to say this might be one of the most pointless threads I've read on here in a while.
Merit, who the hell cares what you think about non union airlines? Honestly. Good for you for being so pro ALPA. We really need people like that out there. And Velo and 128... likewise, although I find both your anti union hatred to be inconsistent at best (not disliking Skywest or Colgan because they don't directly effect you and having a somewhat questionable start in the industry, respectively). But what ever. Hate the game, don't hate the player. There have been multiple assertions made that you would be HAPPY if certain places went out of business and pilots lost their jobs. Get off your high horse. Interestingly enough most of the places that went OUT OF THEIR WAY to make sure furloughed union pilots were hire during the last down turn were non union shops and places currently trying to dump ALPA.
I don't have much vested in this argument. I pay my monthly dues. I give to the PAC. I chair a committee and work with the MEC. I can take out my dong and wave it with the rest of you. But that said, how about ya'll try to be a bit nicer to those who are trying to better their careers (and their fellow pilot's careers). Take a look inside your pilot group and see what you have done to better your fellow pilots life's recently.
Merit, who the hell cares what you think about non union airlines? Honestly. Good for you for being so pro ALPA. We really need people like that out there. And Velo and 128... likewise, although I find both your anti union hatred to be inconsistent at best (not disliking Skywest or Colgan because they don't directly effect you and having a somewhat questionable start in the industry, respectively). But what ever. Hate the game, don't hate the player. There have been multiple assertions made that you would be HAPPY if certain places went out of business and pilots lost their jobs. Get off your high horse. Interestingly enough most of the places that went OUT OF THEIR WAY to make sure furloughed union pilots were hire during the last down turn were non union shops and places currently trying to dump ALPA.
I don't have much vested in this argument. I pay my monthly dues. I give to the PAC. I chair a committee and work with the MEC. I can take out my dong and wave it with the rest of you. But that said, how about ya'll try to be a bit nicer to those who are trying to better their careers (and their fellow pilot's careers). Take a look inside your pilot group and see what you have done to better your fellow pilots life's recently.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
We'll have to make sure someone is watching you come August '08.
I was standing next to a member of the OC when the Colgan ALPA drive '07 failed by four votes. We both stood there in slack-jawed silence for a a moment or two.
Nobody thought it would do anything but pass with flying colors.
Fact of the matter is, as long as Colgan management uses non-union airline costs to finance an under-cutting of union airline contracts, thereby hanging union pilots out to dry, Colgan Air will be looked upon as a shady operation.
It is what it is man. You want the Colgan bashing to stop? Volunteer to help next year's OC. Make sure apathy in the Saab community doesn't kneecap the process.
Airdale
Well-Known Member
I don't know about those statements right there though my friend. What Union contracts does Colgan undercut? Maybe, and thats a big maybe - the ExpressJet flying for Coex out of EWR?
Other then that, Colgan runs in a market without much competition. RJ's can't make money on CJC routes. So really, we're not undercutting anyone - YET. The Q400 operation may be the sword that PCL management was hoping to swing around like a bunch of kids. Not only against their own pilots at PCL, but against the competition.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
WOW, JUST, WOW
Don't know where to begin but let me say this.
Colgan DOES undercut the industry. Competition on routes does not matter. If an airlines rates on 34 seat aircraft are low, it gives management a leg up when negoitiating 50 seat aircraft rates.
Crap rolls uphill in aviation
Never say never John. I think CAL is going to assign us more Qs in Houston within a year.
To the new guys, keep your eyes and ears open, ESPECIALLY to the Q guys.
Don't know where to begin but let me say this.
Colgan DOES undercut the industry. Competition on routes does not matter. If an airlines rates on 34 seat aircraft are low, it gives management a leg up when negoitiating 50 seat aircraft rates.
Crap rolls uphill in aviation
Never say never John. I think CAL is going to assign us more Qs in Houston within a year.
To the new guys, keep your eyes and ears open, ESPECIALLY to the Q guys.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Two very good points. This thread has gotten a little silly and after this I am over it.
Just ask the UAL guys who came to SkyWest after the furloughs. Every UAL guy I flew with seemed to enjoy their time here and was either a bit sad to go back or didn't go back to UAL at all. How is that for ironic?
Other than a few issues over here at my apparently 'evil' company things are pretty good here. Yes, I was on the ALPA OC and want a real union but overall we have a lot of things going for us that are better than most union shops. If we all sat down and compared various work rules and rates there would be pluses and minuses all across the board. No place is perfect but we are working to improve it and there will be another union drive. And we will vote in a union.
In the meantime I will enjoy my days here and ignore the various blanket statements that make zero sense. Peace
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
PSA, PDT, AWAC to name a few...
Colgan runs flights to cities 5 times a day when an RJ could take care of it easily... Piedmont has a major beef with Colgan because Colgan comes in and does the flying "at-risk" thus absolving USAir of any losses.
Bumblebee
Commodore
Sure he makes a reasonable point, but he made it as a blanket generalization which is not entirely accurate. He said he would work at ANY union carrier rather than ANY non-union carrier. When you make that kind of blanket generalization it appears uneducated, or ignorant. (I know this is not the case in this instance). His statement on its face is inaccurate so I took issue with that.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
The Q400 stuff is really what I'm getting at. With sub-industry standard pay and work rules, if Colgan's operations grow and flourish while snapping up contracts that union airlines are bidding for, they're undercutters.
Big time. Pinnacle Holdings managers obviously think that turboprop growth is the key to cornering the market. If allowed to do so without restraint, they'll move in on everybody's business and still leave their employees out in the cold.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Seggy's right. Setting the bar low at one airline DOES affect another.
An example.
Here at Eagle, our payscales are based on negotiated rates, which are increased annually based on 'industry average' or 1.5 percent. It's a built in cost of living adjustment policy.
Right now, our MEC is negotiating with management on whether or not to include Comair's payscale because of pay concessions they made. Because their concessions lowered their pay, it lowers our annual cost of living pay increase.
Or, at the very least, it's the precedent set. Colgan's 'industry average' pay scale for the Q400 was based on just not being the lowest. With Lynx setting the bar low, it let them go just a tiny bit higher so they could avoid being the lowest.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Sure he makes a reasonable point, but he made it as a blanket generalization which is not entirely accurate. He said he would work at ANY union carrier rather than ANY non-union carrier. When you make that kind of blanket generalization it appears uneducated, or ignorant. (I know this is not the case in this instance). His statement on its face is inaccurate so I took issue with that.
My statement was clear, and I stand by it. I won't work for a non-union carrier. Period. Would I work for Mesa instead of Skywest? No, because I would refuse to work for either. If those are my choices, then I say hello to the family business and leave aviation behind.
Velocipede
New Member
Exactly what I've been telling you guys about jetBlue/Virgin/Skybus/Allegiant on the next level of flying. You go to work for those airlines, don't expect to be treated as a professional peer.
Expect to be shunned. And if the movement keeps growing, denied jumpseat access.
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
You're extremely off-base here Firebird.
Colgan undercuts NO ONEs contract.
Let's looks at what is going on...
Colgan's US Airways Express operation is EAS and At Risk. Colgan PAYS US Airways to use the Airways name and ground operations. This is why Colgan Saab load factors are constantly in the 30th percentile. Yes, thats 30%.
Colgan's Texas Continental Connection agreement did undercut another non-union airline- Skywest. Continental was VERY displeased with SKYW.
Colgan's United Express agreement...well Colgan just simply replaced the departed Shuttle America. United pleaded with Colgan to do this, and Colgan got that operation up and running within 60 days!
And now the Q400. Colgan didn't go to Continental saying- "We can do XJT's flying for cheaper!" The Q400 was COA idea, Colgan just happened to be the one who could get them. Now- I'll admit the costs that Colgan is telling COA it can operate at are far below what any other turboprop operater can quote. And a huge reason is those ridiculous pay rates.
So with that being said, I don't think Colgan is undercutting union contracts. Look at Mesa- they're a unionized carrier undercutting fellow unionized-carriers. They even undercut non-union carriers (i.e. Colgan).
Colgan needs to improve, but not a terrible place to be considering it is non-union.
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
Excellent point.
Piedmont- I certainly agree. However- Piedmont isn't losing flying, they're just losing certain routes. Aren't their block hours up like 5.5% in 2007?
Bumblebee
Commodore
OK I understand your point as it applies to you personally.
Question:
What would you suggest for someone not so willing to give up on their aspirations, but was willing to work for change at a non-union (regional)carrier? Give up? Go home and take the easy way out? What if that isn't an option?
There are guys/gals on these boards that work for non-union carriers who are trying to bring their pilot group into a union. That would affect more positive change for our industry than those who pay thier union dues and do nothing else as they throw around blanket generalizations meant to divide us.
If the blanket statement that being at a union carrier is better than a non-union carrier is examined, it is easily proven to be a false assumption.
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