Non-Union airlines..

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Velocipede said:
Exactly what I've been telling you guys about jetBlue/Virgin/Skybus/Allegiant on the next level of flying. You go to work for those airlines, don't expect to be treated as a professional peer.

Expect to be shunned. And if the movement keeps growing, denied jumpseat access.
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Agreed on this one... personally I think the whole industry is gonna turn in its head in the next decade. If pilots aren't careful, execs will use non-union 'no-say' ops as fulcrums to make sure labor winds up on the bottom.

BTW- Noticed a new name up there as well. What's wrong with Allegiant?
 
bumblebee said:
What would you suggest for someone not so willing to give up on their aspirations, but was willing to work for change at a non-union (regional)carrier? Give up? Go home and take the easy way out? What if that isn't an option?
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No one can tell me that there isn't an option here. There are a dozen different unionized regional airlines that are hiring. There is no legitimate excuse for knowingly taking a job at a non-union carrier over a unionized carrier. Now, I don't fault anyone that took the non-union job before they knew any better. As someone that made a pretty big mistake when I was a "newb," I'll never fault anybody for mistakes they make at the beginning of their careers. However, if you do know better and choose to go the non-union route anyway, then that is a problem.
 
SmitteyB said:
You're extremely off-base here Firebird.

Colgan undercuts NO ONEs contract.

Let's looks at what is going on...

And now the Q400. Colgan didn't go to Continental saying- "We can do XJT's flying for cheaper!" The Q400 was COA idea, Colgan just happened to be the one who could get them. Now- I'll admit the costs that Colgan is telling COA it can operate at are far below what any other turboprop operater can quote. And a huge reason is those ridiculous pay rates.

So with that being said, I don't think Colgan is undercutting union contracts. Look at Mesa- they're a unionized carrier undercutting fellow unionized-carriers. They even undercut non-union carriers (i.e. Colgan).

Colgan needs to improve, but not a terrible place to be considering it is non-union.
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If Colgan had a CBA, Q400 pay rates would have been negotiated, rather than slotted low enough to make a low bid for the COEX service. By cutting pilot wages to underbid COA's current XJT rates, COA arbitrated and pulled XJT flying and gave it to Colgan.

In the meanwhile, Pinnacle pilots still do not have a contract. Rather than giving a small pay raise to union pilots, Pinnacle Holdings is pouring money into their non-union 'subsidiary'. It's a merger by proxy, and they're screwing thousands in the process.

They're undercutters, plain and simple. While it may not be a violent, obvious action, it's subtle, growing, and THERE. It'll continue if allowed to do so, unchecked.

This is why non-union airlines have to be seen as what they are here and now, and not later.

Do you wait until millions have a disease... or vaccinate before the epidemic occurs?

Colgan is sewing the seeds of industry change that'll undo decades upon decades of hard-won CBA contracts and benefits.

While I'm sure most pilots look at CJC as a stepping stone and something entirely temporary in their career, as a company, it can leave lasting continuous effects on the industry standard as a whole.
 
Firebird2XC said:
If Colgan had a CBA, Q400 pay rates would have been negotiated, rather than slotted low enough to make a low bid for the COEX service. By cutting pilot wages to underbid COA's current XJT rates, COA arbitrated and pulled XJT flying and gave it to Colgan.

In the meanwhile, Pinnacle pilots still do not have a contract. Rather than giving a small pay raise to union pilots, Pinnacle Holdings is pouring money into their non-union 'subsidiary'. It's a merger by proxy, and they're screwing thousands in the process.

They're undercutters, plain and simple. While it may not be a violent, obvious action, it's subtle, growing, and THERE. It'll continue if allowed to do so, unchecked.

This is why non-union airlines have to be seen as what they are here and now, and not later.

Do you wait until millions have a disease... or vaccinate before the epidemic occurs?

Colgan is sewing the seeds of industry change that'll undo decades upon decades of hard-won CBA contracts and benefits.

While I'm sure most pilots look at CJC as a stepping stone and something entirely temporary in their career, as a company, it can leave lasting continuous effects on the industry standard as a whole.
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Dude...just stop.




What are you drinking?



You are actually making perfect sense! :p
 
Smittey YOU are the one off base here. We do undercut everyone else with our rates. Did you read "Flying the Line?", until you do I suggest you keep quiet on saying we don't undercut anyone.
 
PCL_128 said:
My statement was clear, and I stand by it. I won't work for a non-union carrier. Period. Would I work for Mesa instead of Skywest? No, because I would refuse to work for either.
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Yet you would [pay to] work for a bottom-feeder like Gulfstream, Pinnacle (whose pay, work rules, and QOL are dramatically worse than Skywest's) and a company whose rates average barely 70% of the industry leader for the exact same equipment? Sorry, but I'm not sure you have the standing to lecture on career ethics as much as you do.

The attitude that every non-union pilot is a "puke" (meritflyer) or that non-union airlines are inherently crappy really turns a lot of people off of ALPA. There's not going to be a union at Skywest until ALPA organizers recognize that playing the "management is evil and always out to get you" card is not going to work at a place where people generally like and respect the company...and that comes from someone who would definately like to see a union here.
 
zmiller,


So if not ALPA, then who? If you want the Teamsters, who have sure as heck done a great job at CHQ and Horizon, go after it! Or why not start a true in house union? If you want it, make it happen.
 
jtrain609 said:
So if not ALPA, then who? If you want the Teamsters, who have sure as heck done a great job at CHQ and Horizon, go after it! Or why not start a true in house union? If you want it, make it happen.
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You know how I voted. I think that ALPA is the most attainable option right now, but my ideal choice would be an in-house set up.
 
Actually I don't think ALPA is attainable. I've been asked why I didn't go to Skywest when "ALPA was almost sure to pass."

ALPA never had and never will have a chance at Skywest. I mean a 35% vote for ALPA? You've got too many pilots that are pissed at ALPA. You'd need an in house union, which would cost you WAY more than 2% in dues or Teamsters to get somebody in property.
 
jtrain, they already tried an in-house union a few years ago, and that also failed. The anti-union attitude at Skywest isn't anything new. This was just the latest in a long string of anti-union votes.
 
Honestly I'm not convinced of that. I don't know one Skywest pilot that doesn't want a union, but I also don't know many that are in lock step behind ALPA.

Don't get me wrong, I think ALPA is great; but some representation is head and shoulders above no representation and I don't think writing off the pilot group is very effective in trying to get your message across.

To be real honest I think the biggest problem with ALPA is the misconception behind how it operates. To me ALPA is nothing more than a bank account, my and my MEC is the real union as it affects me.
 
jtrain609 said:
I don't think writing off the pilot group is very effective in trying to get your message across.
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I'm not "writing them off" permanently, but I am accepting the fact that current circumstances make unionization at Skywest impossible for the time being. I think further attempts to organize the Skywest pilots at this time would be a waste of resources. However, in a few years, I think we might be able to have more luck. Time will tell, but I would not advocate further organizing drives at Skywest for now. I think resources are better used at properties like Colgan, among others.
 
Colgan's Texas Continental Connection agreement did undercut another non-union airline- Skywest. Continental was VERY displeased with SKYW.
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That statement is completely false. SkyWest elected to terminate their agreement with Continental because they were not willing to start up a large turboprop operation. This was the reason that Colgan was even able to get that contract.
 
My penis is bigger'n all ya'lls.

I win.

Chill the hell out. This isn't "other popular aviation website".

Have a great day, thanks! :)
 
"Expect to be shunned. And if the movement keeps growing, denied jumpseat access."

Naw, I've never seen it happen, pax or freight. I've never seen it happen and it won't be supported by ALPA, otherwise, all the ALPA guys that enjoy a ride on B6 would be stuck, as well. It's a stupid move to bump non-unions as "retribution". The "what goes around, comes around, theory comes to mind.

You can say ALPA opinion doesn't matter, it's YOUR seat, but then you become a rebel pushing your personal agenda. Good luck with that. It's not catching on.....
 
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