I'm going to start taking bets....

[Bog]

Remember... just because you can make it through training doesn't really mean much more then the fact that you can fly a sim profile and run a QRH.

There's the money shot.

When I got hired into the Beech at ZV, as mentioned I had 775 total. In that time I'd had a couple of gear problems, a couple of engine problems, weather problems, and plenty of crosswind experience. My TT was low, but a few abnormals / emergencies had come my way, and I felt pretty good about it. Was I ready for the Beech? Sure, it's basically an oversized Seminole, and you really don't need a second pilot for it (about 1/3 of the ZV CAs at that point were single-typed). Would I have been ready for a jet at that point? Hell no. Would I have taken it if offered? Actually ... no. I had buddies with more experience than myself who would have told me to turn it down, and I respected their opinions and experience. 800 hours in the right-seat of the 1900 taught me volumes about how to be a pilot, but I was still nervous when I hit the line as an FO in the CRJ. Good thing I had that window shatter on my second leg of IOE.

I flew with quite a few 350-hour wonders. Most were good sticks, but gracious forbid something go wrong or the weather get hairy. That's when I became single-pilot. Going into DEN last Fall, we got a wing anti-ice warning message ... not a big deal because we were simply popping through a thin layer and the a/i system simply didn't like what happened. I was about to ask my FO to pull the books and see what to do, when he just starts smashing buttons. From the look on his face, I could tell that it scared the poop out of him, and it wasn't even a big deal! Now ... what would happen if I'd been in the lav and an engine had failed? I dread the thought. As a Captain, I cannot tell you how many FOs flew through their first cloud with me. That's insane. I cannot tell you how many couldn't land on centerline, or handle a 15-degree, 15-knot crosswind. They didn't have the experience to know any better.

Kellwolf mentioned the lack of high altitude training. After his company lost an aircraft and crew to a high-altitude situation, and after my former employer had MULTIPLE high-altitude stalls and near-stalls while hauling revenue pax, there still is MINIMAL training for high-altitude anything. Sure, we had a handout sent to us all via email, and once every three years you get to fly the sim at FL350 with the yaw damper off and kick the rudder pedal, but that doesn't teach a darn thing. It just means that an instructor can check a box on a piece of paper so that the company can say "It's not our fault!"

To end the rant, I have to agree with others that we really cannot blame the pilots for taking the jobs. This is not said to offend anyone, but they really don't have a clue what they're getting into because it's nothing like they've done before. Given a year or four down the road, they'll be thinking what we're all saying now: 250 / 350 TT and a passed written "exam" and "checkride" at a regional is just not enough. I don't consider myself better than anyone, but I am quite thankful for the experience I had before I started flying 121, and for the experience I gained in the Beech before I hit the jet. It's a different world up there, and the airlines don't teach you how to fly ... they just teach you how to pass a checkride.

 

[Fly4Pay]

Besides, the low time airline pilots aren't my big concern, my bigger concern when I start flight school is to have some kid who got his CFI the week before, be my instructor. I think it's more of a sham to let someone with -200 hours teach others to fly, and who might not even be out of high-school yet.

Yeah, one of my gripes with the Air Force aero club (basically an AF run FBO) was that, before I could fly, I (as a 3000+ hour aircraft commander and instructor) had to have each and every flight plan signed off by a club CFI with 300 hours... uuhhhhhhhhhhhh...... no.

 

[WestIndian425]

Most of the kids from India and China will leave North American Flight Schools with 250 hrs and a wet comm license. As soon as they get home they get hired and sent to get typed on A320, B737, ATR's and are sitting right seat within months. There have been ten students that I have kept in contact with from my school that are flying Heavy Jets at this moment.
Things are getting crazy globaly!

Yep! My students are in ground school for the right seat of a 738 as we speak.

 

[Airdale]

Seggy helped me get hired here, and I'm low time myself. Lower then him actually. In a way its hypocritical, but at the same time he makes a point. Me personally, I think there should be a mandatory few hundred hours of instruction given. What really made me a good pilot was the 250 dual given I have, and in the big picture, thats not very much.

 

[Sprint100]

What really made me a good pilot was the 250 dual given I have, and in the big picture, thats not very much.

Right on Airdale!!!!!! Once us low-timers realize that, the trend can be started to be more open-minded and to push one another to learn new things outside of work. I was talking to Seggy and I would notice a low-timer get a job and do nothing aside from what's told in his job, like they made it. Thus not learning to make himself not be a total liability on the flight deck.

 

[kellwolf]

I would like to know what you all consider to be "enough time" to fly to push the AP button (I know that’s gonna hit the fan)

Hey, man. You insult the way a guy makes a living it's gonna hit the fan, and you're right it is.

but I know my friend who was at Colgan and now training to be on real jets, reads the paper and watches his Ipod 90% of the time.

Really? Well, I'll be the first to say he's unprofessional as hell, then. I know guys that sleep in cruise, too. Does that mean EVEYRONE does?

Who's to say that 1000, or 3000 hours is enough? I'm sure some people get more experience out of 200hrs, then some do out of 1000.

Let's think about that logically......At 200 hours you have probably your PPL and your IR. If you're at a 141 school, you MIGHT have your Comm. How much of that time is by yourself and how much of that is with an instructor? Someone said earlier that in the sim there's the "I'm not gonna die if I F up" in the back of your head. Well, when you're with an instructor, you've got the "My instructor will get me out of a jam" thought in the back of your head. So, let's say you get the stuff at bare minimum. You're looking at 100 hours of that 200 being by yourself. Now, I had about 110 when I was done with everything. The worst thing that happened to me in the next 120 hours of time building to get to my commercial ratings was some pop up t-storms and an engine hiccup. In addition, I had higher personal mins. If the weather was X, I wouldn't go. That also limits the experience factor. As you get more experience, you lower your personal mins. If one of my students got his IR and was out flying actually approaches to mins the next day, I think I'd have a SERIOUS talk about decision making. Why? He doesn't have experience flying actual approaches that AREN'T to mins yet. Simply put, the more hours you have, the more chances you have to get experience in decision making skills.

And lets not look at the fact that there are still tons and tons of crashes being cause by human pilot error with high time pilots because they are set in their ways and don’t bother to read the check lists anymore ect…

You got facts to back this one up, or is this something else a friend told you?

Plus we're are the new guys suppose to get the kind of training needed if they can't get there, kinda a catch 22 don't you think.

Get out there and fly in the ATC system. Find a job towing banners, get your CFI rating, fly sky divers, rent a plane and fly your friends around. There is no training that can substitute actual, real world experience.

I'm saying maybe new hires should have longer probation periods and have constant check ups with check airmen to make sure they are on the right path to being safe and successful.

That would be great. Too bad the airlines don't have enough check airmen to train the new hires and upgrades, let alone enough to do random checks. When a CA gets line checked, don't think the FO is getting off easily, either. One of the guys in my class found himself back in training in that situation b/c he wasn't doing the PNF up to standards 6 months after he finished. If he's acting like that on a line check, who knows what he's doing when the check airman ISN'T in the jumpseat.

Besides, the low time airline pilots aren't my big concern, my bigger concern when I start flight school is to have some kid who got his CFI the week before, be my instructor.

So a 250 hour guy can fly a CRJ with 0 time in type, but he can't teach you how to fly a Cessna that he's got most of is time in? Sounds kinda hypoctritical if ya ask me.

I think it's more of a sham to let someone with -200 hours teach others to fly, and who might not even be out of high-school yet.

Tell ya what. Start training before you start pointing fingers. I WAS that CFI with a temp cert teaching PPL students. In fact, any CFI you get was there once. Making comments like you have more or less insults all of us.

 

[adreamer]

Remember... just because you can make it through training doesn't really mean much more then the fact that you can fly a sim profile and run a QRH.

:yeahthat:

I was amazed by one of my classmates in the ground school. The question, an open test, was a simple approach question - "When GPS is not available after FAF, can you continue RNAV approach?" The answer was not on the book. I watched one of my classmates struggle for 5 minutes. Finally, I walked over and told my classmate the answer. :nana2: I was speechless.

Back to more study.

 

[jtrain609]

You know a lot of time I feel this argument goes kinda like this:

"Well you know, you can't just use flight time as a measurement for how good of a pilot somebody will be in X aircraft. I mean look at Chicaga, he's a regional captain and doing just fine! He hasn't crashed a plane yet! It's obvious that flight time is not a good indicator of how well somebody will do in the cockpit."

All these people are looking for is the mere admission that flight time is not the only qualifier, and they're right from a technical sense, it's not. But you know what? It's still better than thinking everybody is a superstar.

Because listen guys, not every one of is going to be the Lebron James of flying. You ain't gonna get you're commercial and then have somebody say, "WOW! You're really hot ####! You NEED to come fly this airplane!" It doesn't work that way, and you guys have got to accept that you are simply not going to be up to speed with faster airplanes until you get some more serious time under your belt.

So you want an admission? There it is. You want reality, here it is; the MAJORITY of 500 hour pilots have no business being in jets. Do I fault them for taking the jobs? Not at all. Would I have taken those jobs? Of course. But ya'll have got to realize that as good of pilots are you think you are, you're most likely not up to the level you need to be at to safely operate a jet as a valued crew member. COULD you be? Yes, you might be. What are the chances?

Well how many Lebron James' are there out there, and what are the chances you're him? MOST people have to replace mad skills with hours in the logbook to keep them safe, it's just a fact of life that transcends flying and applies to most things in life.

 

[amorris311]

very well said john!

 

[Fly4Pay]

Y
All these people are looking for is the mere admission that flight time is not the only qualifier, and they're right from a technical sense, it's not. But you know what? It's still better than thinking everybody is a superstar.

Absolutely right. But I'll take you one step further--lots of time doesn't necessarily mean anything either. We had one guy I flew with in the AF that had more time in the cockpit than many of the guys on this board have been alive, and he scared the crap out of me.

Airline flying is not a merit-based world. You aren't paid (or upgraded) based upon how good you are, but on how long you've been with the company. I realize there are drawbacks to a merit-based system (such as, who do you trust to make the judgements), but that's about the only way out of the arbitrary mins issue.

But bottom line, is that I watch EVERYBODY like a hawk, regardless of their hours. It's like the line from Con Air: "There's two people I trust. One's me, and the other's not you..."

 

[jtrain609]

Absolutely right. But I'll take you one step further--lots of time doesn't necessarily mean anything either. We had one guy I flew with in the AF that had more time in the cockpit than many of the guys on this board have been alive, and he scared the crap out of me.

Airline flying is not a merit-based world. You aren't paid (or upgraded) based upon how good you are, but on how long you've been with the company. I realize there are drawbacks to a merit-based system (such as, who do you trust to make the judgements), but that's about the only way out of the arbitrary mins issue.

But bottom line, is that I watch EVERYBODY like a hawk, regardless of their hours. It's like the line from Con Air: "There's two people I trust. One's me, and the other's not you..."

Fair enough. I've got a question for you; how much time have you spent in civilian training departments dealing with 250 hour first officers and putting them in jets? Heck, let's even say turboprops.

There's only one person this thread who has actually been tasked with doing what ya'll are talking about while in the civilian world.

 

[Fly4Pay]

Fair enough. I've got a question for you; how much time have you spent in civilian training departments dealing with 250 hour first officers and putting them in jets? Heck, let's even say turboprops.

There's only one person this thread who has actually been tasked with doing what ya'll are talking about while in the civilian world.

I'm not saying we SHOULD do the same in the civilian world. Actually, I'd like to get away from the whole "hours" thing entirely. For example, in the AF, you have two guys--one has 2000 hours, 99.9% of which is flying in circles with the autopilot on. Other guy has only 500 hours, but it's instructing primary students, instrument approaches at strange fields, aerobatics, and so on. Obviously, despite the time disadvantage, the 500 hour pilot is probably a better pilot.

And no, I don't have that "better option." Mebbe somebody with a big brain bucket can help come up with it.

 

[jtrain609]

That's fair enough, but remember the selection critia before that guy even had a chance to get those 2,000 hours. What's the completion rate in the Air Force from guys that apply to actually get deployed? I've heard the washout is as high as 90%.

I can tell you that ain't happening in the civilian world.

In the civilian world, if you have the money, then you WILL pass your commercial ride. After some of the crap that I've seen, it's amazing what you can get away with in the civilian world.

 

[Fly4Pay]

In the civilian world, if you have the money, then you WILL pass your commercial ride. After some of the crap that I've seen, it's amazing what you can get away with in the civilian world.

See? With enough money, you can get time. You can't necessarily get skill. Having a skills-based hiring (rather than an hours based one) is HUGE. Someone said it above--the hours just get the interview, not the job. But it's up to the hiring departments to stick to their guns and hire guys with skills.

Now the heresy--what if airline upgrades weren't contingent upon just your line number, but also recommendations of whether you were ready (skills- and judgement-wise) to upgrade or not?

 

[kellwolf]

See? With enough money, you can get time. You can't necessarily get skill. Having a skills-based hiring (rather than an hours based one) is HUGE. Someone said it above--the hours just get the interview, not the job. But it's up to the hiring departments to stick to their guns and hire guys with skills.

The problem is the airlines don't have enough time in the interview process to determine someone's skills. A sim ride isn't really sufficient, IMO, assuming they even HAVE a sim eval.

Now the heresy--what if airline upgrades weren't contingent upon just your line number, but also recommendations of whether you were ready (skills- and judgement-wise) to upgrade or not?

You're going on the assumption that the company would do this the right way and not upgrade guys that will bend over backwards for the company agenda, ie not writing up a mx issue at an outstation so the flight can leave on time. IMO, the guys that would do the right thing might get passed over for the "company man."

 

[Rocketman99]

Even in the military you get your share of folks that are big question marks. People will always manage to slip through the cracks. I can think of people in my AF UPT class who I didn't think had any chance of making it through but they managed to squeak by. One is even an instructor pilot now. I should hope that means he's become a very competent pilot and not that the system is that far broken.

What can be done to provent these sorts of things? I don't know. I'm not sure anyone knows. There's just no perfect way of training or evaluating people that will be 100% right 100% of the time. You can only just hope for the best with what you have to work with.

What does that mean to us? Well it means we all have to step up to the plate. As a Captain, make sure you're doing your best to mentor FOs and create competent reliable future Captains. As FOs stay in the books, watch the Captains you fly with for things to do and not to do when you make it there. The same goes for students/CFIs.

We can either all keep b****ing about the low timers taking jobs they don't belong in (not helping or changing anything) or do whatever we can to remedy the situation in our power (learn/mentor). Sad but true, it likely really wont change until there is some unfortunate incident. I'd hate to see that happen but it probably will happen so be it. When it does, I hope it's nothing that any of us could have personally had a part in preventing in any way (and no one I know).

 

[jtrain609]

See that's the problem, because capitalism is driving this equation, not safety. If you want to talk with me about education and safety I'm all ears, but unforunatly we've gotta bring Adam Smith into a conversation that he, in my opinion, has no business being in. The mimimum standards for the FAA are so low that when we start to rest on them we're going to get people hurt. Traditionally we've never come close to touching them, but we're obviously in a differen situation and that's because airlines can't find their normally qualified applicants. Think about it, 20 years ago guys with 3,000 hours total time were fighting to get in the right seat of a Metroliner. Do you think we've really improved civilian training THAT much in the last 20 years? I've only been flying for the last 9 of that, but I doubt the training has gotten that much better, if any.

You said the one magic word that could get me to listen to what you have to say with merit based systems for upgrade; JUST upon the number.

The problem is, our job is to be AVERAGE. If we do everything right, nothing happens. We get the job done, and that's all. There are no hero's, and the guy that never calls in sick doesn't get advanced above the guy that is a real company man. Again, capitalism, and not safety and education plays too large of a role here.

Now I work at a company that doesn't upgrade based soley on senority, they upgrade based on the needs of the company and guys get taken out of order if they can help the company out. We also don't have much of a washout rate for those guys upgrading (mind you, we only hire captains here because we're a single pilot IFR outfit), but then again you have to have 1,200 hours to fly a Chieftain here.

So that might play a part in that equation.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Maybe a new hire should be doing 100 hours of IOE. Maybe captains should get special training and a pay override if they fly with an FO who has less then 100 hours in the airplane"

I agree. There are ways to mitigate the risk. They cost money. It won't happen.

"...and watches his Ipod 90% of the time"

No required crewmember in the pointy end of a commercial aircraft should be "watching an iPod". You gotta be kidding me...

I haven't seen it happen and really can't believe that it does. At my level, I haven't even seen anyone listen to music.

 

[BobDDuck]

Oh it happens Don. I can't say I am guilty of it but I've seen it. And you want to know the funny thing? It wasn't in an RJ but a 320. Go figure.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I think as we go round and round in circles in this debate, there is one thing that none of us can argue: Practical experience cannot be replaced by training, no matter how great the training is. Experience is the greatest asset to a pilot today. That is a fact, and cannot be refuted.

The problem still remains that pilots are getting hired with well less than the typical 1000 hours due to shortages for qualified applicants. This means that no matter what we do now, pilots without much experience (like myself four years ago) are now sitting in the cockpit of regional airliners.

What do we control? Do we control the minimums set by the Human Resources and Flight Operations departments? No, not really. We cannot go in and stomp our fist on the table and say, "Raise the minimums now! There will be a crash if you don't!" We cannot do this because there are no facts to support our perspective that many low time pilots struggle out on the line post-training. There are two different viewpoints in play here: The viewpoint of the line pilot who works day in and day out with the low time hires, and the perspective of the company who must fill seats with crewmembers to fly the schedule as published to continue doing business. In some ways, these are competing goals.

So like I said, what do we control? As pilots, and as instructors, we control how well our students and first officers do in gaining the experience they do not have. We have a great responsibility as CFIs to ensure that our student pilots are taught the right things early, and have good flying habits ingrained from the start. We cannot give up on them, and just bide our time until we get into the right seat of an airline jet. There is a torch to be passed, and the CFI has a firm grip on it.

The line captain also has a great responsibility, to mentor the new first officers to ensure they learn and operate the aircraft safely. Sure, you don't get paid as an IOE instructor, but you will suffer like the rest when your lack of attention to a new first officer leaves them unprepared for when they sit in the left seat and are in command.

We have sat here and argued about whether or not a low time pilot has a place in an airline cockpit. Myself, Seggy, and others proof positive that whether us low-timers belong or not, we have been hired and will continue to be hired. The focus needs to be on how we can ensure that we do not let each other down, and work with one another to fill up that experience bucket faster than it normally would. There is only so much one can learn while in pilot training, whether at the private pilot level or in new-hire ground school. It is up to us pilots who have been through the process already to pass on what we have learned. I know for a fact I would have struggled in my first few months on the line if it had not been for some amazing captains who answered my questions and showed me things they learned. I have been accused of "raising the ladder" now that I am in the left seat, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. I am trying to replicate the actions of those captains who influenced me, by passing along my experiences (however small) to the guy or gal to my right who is just out of IOE. It helps when that person is open and receptive to learning, which I'd say is the biggest problem now: The attitude that "I'm here, now it is time to relax." That is the worst attitude to have!

I am not sitting up here on a soap box trying to tell anyone they do or don't belong in an airline cockpit. I don't care what your flight times are, where you went to school, or what your favorite color is. I just hope that you realize this job is serious, and accept the professional responsibility as an airline pilot to continually be open to learn and grow. Even as a captain now, I still work hard to keep learning new things every day. The day you should stop trying to learn and grow is the day you celebrate turning 60 years old.