I'm going to start taking bets....

[Seggy]

A few things.

I am a very straightforward, cut the crap kind of guy. What I say and post on here I will say in front of anyone in person. Not everything in this industry is lovey dovy. There are some issues that need to be addressed (I feel) about low time hires.

YES I WAS HIRED AT LOW TIME.

However, I want to be part of the solution to what I see is a problem. Why is it a problem? It lowers the bar of this professionalism. As professionals we should want that bar to be constantly raised.

No, I do not want to see ANY planes planted into the ground. However, it is only a matter of time before that happens and the result will be based on low experience. Then what will happen? Who knows? But I can assure you that we as line pilots WILL FACE THE BRUNT OF IT. From passengers, from management, from ourselves if something is not done.

WOW! Let me know how the view is from all ya'lls high horses.

I know you have A LOT more experience than me in some pretty cool airplanes. I truly feel like there are some issues with low time hires that will lead to many headaches and issues within this profession for ALL of us. NO WAY I am saying I am better for thinking this. You have your opinion, I have mine. In the end of the day when we meet, the first round is on me.

Raising standards means raising pay to attract higher quality applicants. But why offer more pay to get more qualfied pilots? That just increases costs. So instead of attracting better quality candidates, lower the mins. keep the costs low.

i have been preaching this for a while. Lower time applicants equal lesss pay for the industry. This pilot shortage is a MANUFACTURED shortage. There are plenty of pilots out there. Just not enough to do it at the crap wages airlines are offering now.

I disagree with you on how it is a manufactured one. Ten, twenty years ago, guys would be going to fly the Beech, Metro, Jetstream, for LOWER pay then they are paying RJ drivers. These guys had 2000-3000 hours of total time. They built it up flying pipeline patrol, banners, CFIing, traffic watch, and freight. So the pay has always been low for these entry level 121 jobs.

Now, I would argue this is a good sign. Not because lower time pilots are getting jobs, but because the mins keep going down BECAUSE these places cannot fill the classes. Maybe, just maybe, the word is getting out that flying for 20K (gross) a year just isn't worth it.

But hey, this is JC, why focus on the positive when we all can jump on a bandwagon and make ourselves feel better bashing people we don't know. I'll bring the sock, someone else supply the handful of quarters.

No, I hope that there is a 'shortage' as they say. That would be VERY positive for all of us on here. The thing is though, we should all hope that this 'shortage' does not create more shortcuts in the industry. If there truly is a shortage, then it is time for pilots to band together and RAISE THE BAR.

But we somehow don't bear any of the responsibility, it is all of the "SJS 300 hour wonders" that are responsible for the decline of this profession.

I was interviewed with 555 hours in my logbook.So, yes, I WAS A LOW TIME HIRE and responsible for the lowering of the bar. However, after being in this industry for a short amount of time, looking back and trying to see the big picture, I am trying to do my part to make sure that this practice is changed.

One of my former students writes and is an editor for a world wide newspaper out of New York City. I had lunch with him a few months ago and explained to him this situation. His exact words, "No way would we write a story on low time pilots except when they are related to the cause of an accident. When that happens the media will have a field day with it." I don't want that to happen.

Just a few things....


Have the CA mins been lowered?

How many here have been hired at low mins?

How many of those planes have ended up smoking holes in the ground (other than pcl) and been attributed to the low time?

Like FlyChicaga it's not so much the quantity, but quality of the hours.

Let's not start pulling up the ladder.

Some may not like it, but it is what it is. There are openings and it is obvious that companies are having trouble filling the classes.

That being said, I can see this trickling down to the FBO's and other training facilities. Many students become a CFI to build hours, to train for a job, flying for an airline, freight, etc......

Why would a student continue the CFI gig if he/she can get to an airline type job right away and that was their goal?

....In closing, back to Mark's original statement, until that happens the public could not care any less. They are worried about getting from A to B for the least amount of $$$$. When I last took a regional with some of my co-workers I mentioned how low some of these airlines are hiring and they just shrugged their shoulders.



....edit.....

the low time is just getting the foot in the door. These people still have to pass ground school, IOE, and I assume some type of probation. Now if they are being pushed through GS and IOE then that is a bigger issue. For the CA's out there, do you have any recourse or say in what is happening on the line or do you have to take what you getting in the way of F/O's?

Jim, no the Captain mins have not been lowered.....yet. However, there was a Chief Pilot at a regional, who left suddenly. One of the speculations why he left was because he REFUSED to budge on the total time for Captains and management didn't like it. Pure speculation, but heard it from different sources.

Yes, many of us here have been lowered at low time. We are also saying that it is not right and SOMETHING needs to be done about it.

If the PCL accident had PAX aboard there would be a much larger outcry. Take a look at the Shuttle America incident in CLE. Not sure, but I would bet one hundred bucks that the Captain and/or First Officer was a graduate from an aviation university who was hired at Republic with a 'bridge' program. Can anyone confirm this? It is only a matter of time...

Quality of hours vs quantity. Is it quality hours to be sitting there with a CFI next to you for 500 out of your 560 hours of total time? A lot of these bridge programs do this.

Your coworker won't be shrugging their shoulders if a plane becomes part of the hole in the ground. The media will have a FIELD DAY with pilots.

Captains do have a say. The Captain is the one to mentor/teach the First Officer. However, as a Captain you want to have a competent FO that you can bounce questions off, ask them what they think when the poo hits the fan.

Also if there is an FO out there that is truly horrible. But the airline canceled 20 flights yesterday because they had no First Officers to man them, what do you think will happen?

Mark, just to ask to get the idea:

1. How long have you been at Colgan?
2. What were your times when you hired in?
3. Do you happen to know the approx hours of the first non-IOE CA was?

I know it has been sliding the past year really bad, but I don't remember from years before.

Also, just add it to your next negociation with management that CA will NOT fly with a FO with less then XX TT. That would solve it, right?

1. Been at Colgan a year and a half
2. Interviewed at 555 hours total time, 107 hours multi.
3. 2900 hours, a great friend of mine and great mentor. Learned a lot from him.

I think the negotiation with the total time will be with the FAA not management. ALPA is trying to do something about it.

Hey Segs just curious what did you get hired on at Colgan with???

Taking a bet to see which regional will be the next one to crash is a incredibily horrible thing to do or say.
I have flown with FOs with 500 hours and I have flown with FOs with 3,000 hours, to be perfectly honest, they are both new to the aircraft they were in at the time and performed comparably to one another.
Last I checked hiring minimums got the interview, not the job. If the applicant has proven him/herself successful through training then perhaps they may deserve a little more credit then the hours in their logbook.
A person, such as yourself, should not have this attitude especially this close to upgrade. Here is a little pointer for you, don't look at the person in the right seat as a liabillity because it will greatly hinder your ability as a PIC.
Oh and by the way if I ever had a jumpseater question the qualifications and abilities of my entire flight crew, that jumpseater WILL BE taking the later flight, guaranteed.

AmazingPilot, just a figure of speech. Not everything is lovey dovy in this industry. Obviously I hope there will NEVER be any more plane crashes. I am a straight shooter, why sugar coat something that shouldn't be.

Yeah it was a joke, when I asked about the qualifications of the crew.

You are right, an applicant has to prove them self during training. At our company we have an EXCELLENT training department. DM and EY do a great job as well as the sim instructors, systems instructors, and the check airman on the Beech and Saab.

Not all companies have as good training departments as we do.

As someone who will be a captain shortly, my attitude is this. A Captain's role is to mentor a First Officer and NOT view them as a liability, I never said that. A good Captain will use their crew to bounce questions off. As a brand new first officer it made me feel good when a Captain would ask me "What I thought." about a situation. Showed me that I was part of the crew. I will do the same.

 

[Bog]

I have to back Seggy on this. I too was "low time" when I got hired by MAG. 775 TT with 650 multi. My multi is what got me the time, because other than the two of us from ATP, everyone else in my newhire class had at least 1200 TT. When I was hired, there was no way I would have felt comfortable going into an RJ, and I was quite happy to be going to the Beech 1900. Seeing that plane in the hangar made my stomach churn ... they're going to let me fly that?! With 19 people?! I cannot fathom being a newhire doing IOE in a CRJ-705/900. That's insane.

I don't think we're looking down upon the world from high horses, either. We're not saying "We were good enough for it, but you're not." We're simply stating the obvious that things need to change before there IS a smoking hole somewhere. The current path is leading us there, and we are trying to be part of the solution to prevent it.

 

[DoWhat?]

Ok, here is the deal. My contract with my current employer ends in May. At that time I will have around 800TT 105 multi. This puts me in the realm of the dreaded "low timer". Seggy, if I am lucky enough to be hired at your company how will we ever get along? I don't want to call anyone out here, but it seems like a huge double standard to say "Ya I was hired at low times but now I believe that's an unsafe practice and has to change!" How was it fine for you to be a low time wonder, yet I'm going to be a liability?

 

[Seggy]

Ok, here is the deal. My contract with my current employer ends in May. At that time I will have around 800TT 105 multi. This puts me in the realm of the dreaded "low timer". Seggy, if I am lucky enough to be hired at your company how will we ever get along? I don't want to call anyone out here, but it seems like a huge double standard to say "Ya I was hired at low times but now I believe that's an unsafe practice and has to change!" How was it fine for you to be a low time wonder, yet I'm going to be a liability?

First, I have NO beef with ANY one on here. I have helped people get hired with 'low time' and will do it again if I can. Trust me we will get along fine. There is a HUGE difference between getting along and how the industry is today. We are all professionals and I have beef with the industry allowing low timers into the cockpit, not the individual person.

This does not pertain to jetcareers.com members but I will post it anyway. If that person does think that they deserve an airline job at 250 hours well then, I will have beef with you. In life we deserve nothing. We work for what we get.





No double standard. When I went to interview I did not see what I see today. I kept an open mind, grew my opinions and have formed an opinion that I have today as time went by and I learned and experienced things.

If you are low time, apply, get that job!

Hopefully, then that will put you in a position to advocate for what you believe in.

I am NOT pointing the finger at the low time guy! I am pointing the finger at the industry!

 

[Stone Cold]

DoWhat,

The sad part is you are now considered a "high time low timer". I think people have more problems with a 250 hour wonder...you're almost up to 1000 hours; not that that is high time by any means, but it's a heck of a lot better than a wet COMM ticket with no actual experience.

 

[BobDDuck]

The fact of the matter is ANYBODY coming out of GA aircraft and into a high performance turbo prop or jet is going to suck and be a liability on the captain for a while. The difference between a "high time" and "low time" guy is how long they will suck for. Of course, what defines high time? In the past it seems that to be high time you had to have 2000 hours and have spent time instructing, flying pipeline patrol and moving freight around. Not to drag any of the freight dogs into this, but I am pretty sure that even a guy with extensive heavy IFR time in a 206 would get his ass whooped for the first few weeks in a RJ or SAAB. Would he catch up to the airplane faster then a guy with 400 hours of flying around the pattern in a Cessna? Sure he would, and THAT is the difference between low and high time. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule. I've seen FOs who have a few thousand hours who are barely hanging on and I've seen a few new hire FOs out think the captain. That's rare though.

So, is it fair to tell a wet ink commercial guy that he shouldn't be trying to get on with an airline? Hell no. Seniority really is everything. If you are trying to make a career of flying then get on with the career. However, it is important to know that you will be a liability for the first bit of time.

Instead we should be directing our frustration at airline procedures that allow a 300 hour pilot to be dumped on a line captain who has had no training in dealing with newbies and probably doesn't care as long as they get to the hotel in time for him to have a cold one. Maybe a new hire should be doing 100 hours of IOE. Maybe captains should get special training and a pay override if they fly with an FO who has less then 100 hours in the airplane.


Who knows how it will all work out, but I agree with what has been said. If the trend continues we will see a plane crash due to lack of experience. It's only a matter of time.

 

[Sprint100]

Great post Bob:nana2: You definitely brought another dimension into my train of thought!!!!!!!

 

[DoWhat?]

I see what your saying Seggy. I guess I'll take it as a "walk a mile in my shoes" type thing. I'm not in your position so it's impossible for me to understand fully what you are saying. Don't get me wrong, I don't think people with 250 hours have any business in the airlines. I just want to avoided being labeled the class clown before I get to the school.

 

[AmazingPilot]

From your original post....

To see which regional is the next one to make a smoking hole in the ground.

Implying, directly that you would like to trivialize by gambiling when the next major airline crash would occur at the regional level.
Doesn't seem really funny to me, actual appears in terrible taste.
You say your a very straightforward, cut the crap kind of guy on here as well as in real life, so apparently you must talk without thinking in real life also. It's one thing to say something then retract it or apoligize, but don't defend your idiotic statements. Think about it real hard, REAL HARD, about exactly what your saying;
The next time a plane crashes, burns, and is destroyed in impact killing anywhere from 50-80 people, you will be picking up the phone calling your friend and telling them that you won the bet. Thus you will profit from a horrid situation, the incentive of you profitting off of the crash would cause you to look at the situation as a positive won.
You said that, not me. Aircraft accidents are not jokes.

These mins are BS, simple as that. I am going to start asking the pilots to see how much time they have next time I DH, jumpseat, or nonrev to see if I should board the flight or take a later one!

You are criticizing the hiring minimums that are being used in this day in age because of what??? Where do you get off criticizing that the minimums are too low????
You were hired at Colgan with what 555 TT/105 Multi, the majority of hiring minimums today is 600/100, and you have the audocity to criticize other pilots. The same minimums that were good enough for you are not good enough for the rest of the up and coming pilot community.
That in a nutshell is exactly what you are saying.

 

[AmazingPilot]

To see which regional is the next one to make a smoking hole in the ground.

These mins are BS, simple as that. I am going to start asking the pilots to see how much time they have next time I DH, jumpseat, or nonrev to see if I should board the flight or take a later one!

Ok, here is the deal. My contract with my current employer ends in May. At that time I will have around 800TT 105 multi. This puts me in the realm of the dreaded "low timer". Seggy, if I am lucky enough to be hired at your company how will we ever get along? I don't want to call anyone out here, but it seems like a huge double standard to say "Ya I was hired at low times but now I believe that's an unsafe practice and has to change!" How was it fine for you to be a low time wonder, yet I'm going to be a liability?

DoWhat, if you get interview are offered a position and successfully complete training then you earned that. You deserve every bit of credit for completing that goal. The fact that you are commited to completing your contract with your current employer shows commitment.
One thing I will tell you about this industry is that people gain expierence and sometimes let their ego out grow that expierence.
I'm sure you've worked hard to reach your goals don't let anyone take that away from you.

 

[deek]

We'll speaking from a guy outside looking in, I can see how low time pilots may be a problem in the cockpit, I'm just hoping that as soon as I can apply to an airline, I will, and I hope the training department does their job and I hope the Captain does his to "grow" me into being a future captain with that airline. I'm sure all these new FO's are looking up to their CA for the actual knowledge that flight schools and initial training didn't provide, the "real world" stuff. , Isn't that what it's all about? I know it's not to be seen as an "internship" but as a real job, but when we're forking up life savings to start a career that's based on getting in first (which the airline itself created) then the airline has to accept that they are going to hire low time guys for low pay. And I think credit has to be given for a newbie to fork up his life savings, to make crap pay, to one day be you guys. Just my two cents, which really adds up to about 1 1/2. But for the record, I'd have no problem with mins going back up to they way they we're and earning it the old fashioned way. If that's the way it is, then that's how I'm gonna do it.

 

[DoWhat?]

Thanks for the encouragment Amazing! Getting a start in this industry can be very challenging. All this low time talk may be a moot point, I am considering a job flying 207's in Alaska this summer. I don't know Seggy personally but have enjoyed reading his post over the last year or so. He seems to be a stand up guy so I wouldn't be to hard on him. Seems to me that he is venting about something that we don't know about.

 

[BobDDuck]

We'll speaking from a guy outside looking in, I can see how low time pilots may be a problem in the cockpit, I'm just hoping that as soon as I can apply to an airline, I will, and I hope the training department does their job and I hope the Captain does his to "grow" me into being a future captain with that airline. I'm sure all these new FO's are looking up to their CA for the actual knowledge that flight schools and initial training didn't provide, the "real world" stuff.

And that is all fine and good. You should be trying to do that. The problem is you are going to get thrown into an environment where many of the captains (not all, but defiantly some) don't want to take the time to "grow" you into a good pilot. They don't view that as their job. In the past when a pilot made it to a regional they had to learn a new plane and that was it. They already were competent in all other areas. Now captains are having to play CFIs in all sorts of aspects teaching basic IFR procedures, weather, airport operations and aerodynamics. It's not what they signed on to do and aren't really trained or compensated for it. Sure, many do it because it is the right thing do to and the are the good captains to fly with. But a lot of them don't and then gripe about how they are flying a high performance jet not only single pilot, but with one hand tied behind their back

All that said, don't for a minute think that I am saying you should turn down a regional job just because people don't feel you have the time for it. If they are going to hire you then you meet what ever requirements that the company has. You are in like Flynn. Just know that it really isn't the captain's job to teach you basic stuff. As I said, many will, and I think that is great. I wish I flew with more captains that were willing to teach.

 

[Seggy]

I see what your saying Seggy. I guess I'll take it as a "walk a mile in my shoes" type thing. I'm not in your position so it's impossible for me to understand fully what you are saying. Don't get me wrong, I don't think people with 250 hours have any business in the airlines. I just want to avoided being labeled the class clown before I get to the school.

You have the right mindset. When I was hired I thought I was ready with my time, made it through training with no problem, and have had no probems out on the line or during recurrent events. Thank God I was hired on the Beech.

However, looking back, to be allowed to hire ANYONE at 500 hours, well, I don't agree with it. The experience one has at 500 hours, compared to 1000 hours to 1500 is unreal. I changed my opinion once gaining that experience. You might or you might not. If you do, advocate what you believe in.

No one will label you the class clown or look down on you because of your time when hired! I hope to share the cockpit with you one day!

Implying, directly that you would like to trivialize by gambiling when the next major airline crash would occur at the regional level.
Doesn't seem really funny to me, actual appears in terrible taste.
You say your a very straightforward, cut the crap kind of guy on here as well as in real life, so apparently you must talk without thinking in real life also. It's one thing to say something then retract it or apoligize, but don't defend your idiotic statements. Think about it real hard, REAL HARD, about exactly what your saying;
The next time a plane crashes, burns, and is destroyed in impact killing anywhere from 50-80 people, you will be picking up the phone calling your friend and telling them that you won the bet. Thus you will profit from a horrid situation, the incentive of you profitting off of the crash would cause you to look at the situation as a positive won.
You said that, not me. Aircraft accidents are not jokes.




You are criticizing the hiring minimums that are being used in this day in age because of what??? Where do you get off criticizing that the minimums are too low????
You were hired at Colgan with what 555 TT/105 Multi, the majority of hiring minimums today is 600/100, and you have the audocity to criticize other pilots. The same minimums that were good enough for you are not good enough for the rest of the up and coming pilot community.
That in a nutshell is exactly what you are saying.

DoWhat, if you get interview are offered a position and successfully complete training then you earned that. You deserve every bit of credit for completing that goal. The fact that you are commited to completing your contract with your current employer shows commitment.
One thing I will tell you about this industry is that people gain expierence and sometimes let their ego out grow that expierence.
I'm sure you've worked hard to reach your goals don't let anyone take that away from you.

AmazingPilot, I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth or saying about my actions what I will do when/if another plane crashes.

When I found out about the Comair accident in LEX, the first thing I did was call my buddy who commutes out of LEX to make sure he was not on the flight. That is the first thing I will do when/if another plane goes down, pray that none of my friends are on it. I will take NO pleasure when/if a plane goes down. You are a sick individual for even implying I would think something like that. I feel that there is something wrong with this industry. I am trying to do something about it, making people think about it, rather than sitting at home on the computer silent about it.

About the hiring and hours. If one has an opportunity to be hired with that low time, then GO GET HIRED. If you read my posts I have helped others, on here with lower time than I had get a job. However, all I ask is have an open mind and think about the process and journey. If you feel like it is to low, advocate about it.

I would avoid personal remarks about my 'ego'. Trust me you really don't want to go there. I want this post to stay in General Topics, not down the toilet in the lav. If you want to make any personal remarks to me, then the PM function works great!

I encourage ANYONE out there to follow their dreams, no matter what point you are in your career. Just keep an open mind about the journey!

 

[Sprint100]

AmazingPilot, I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth

Don't trip Seg, he is an aspiring lawyer working on his cross-examination tactics

 

[BE19Pilot]

I just want to throw my .02 cents worth in and back up my buddy Mark. I've known him since he was a new-hire and he has always put 110% effort into his studies and work as a professional pilot. I applaud him for voicing what alot of people already are thinking. The next accident is not an "if" it's a "when". I certainly hope that we can all work to avoid that probability, but it is in fact inevitable if you were to look at from a statistics point of view. Factoring in the lower experience levels in the regional cockpit, disgruntled, fatigued and distracted pilots we are more lucky than we are adroit at avoiding the inevitable.
I always tell guys the idea is to accept the fact that you are going to make mistakes, and so are the people around you. However, the name of the game is to work EXTRA hard at avoiding the "mother of all F*** UPS". You know the kind CFIT, Runway Incursions, Altitude/Nav. busts, Improper diagnosis/solution of abnormals/emergencies, etc...
People defend the low-timer in the cockpit using the military as an example. However, we just aren't trained that extensively and that specialized. The military also has alot more resources, better standardization, training devices, methods, etc...list goes on and on why the military aviator is a better animal than us civilian trained folks. And, I WAS a former military flight crewmember with 4000 hours in helicopters as a sensor operator/rescue swimmer.
My biggest beef is that the low-timer just hasn't seen enough, done enough to be an asset in the cockpit during an unusual event just flying line nevermind during an emergency situation. Once again airline managers are relying, hoping, praying that the current paradigm doesn't create "the mother of all F***UPS". It is a pretty large risk given the stakes, but I am seeing the airline management as being more of a greedy, hungry animal that is nearly impossible to satisfy.
Mark is right, it is inevitable...I think to myself everyday how lucky we are to get paid to do this for a living. I temper that with a realization that we are all living on borrowed time as it is and still we keep pushing the envelope on what is practical and reasonable for safety.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[Seggy]

I just want to throw my .02 cents worth in and back up my buddy Mark. I've known him since he was a new-hire and he has always put 110% effort into his studies and work as a professional pilot. I applaud him for voicing what alot of people already are thinking. The next accident is not an "if" it's a "when". I certainly hope that we can all work to avoid that probability, but it is in fact inevitable if you were to look at from a statistics point of view. Factoring in the lower experience levels in the regional cockpit, disgruntled, fatigued and distracted pilots we are more lucky than we are adroit at avoiding the inevitable.
I always tell guys the idea is to accept the fact that you are going to make mistakes, and so are the people around you. However, the name of the game is to work EXTRA hard at avoiding the "mother of all F*** UPS". You know the kind CFIT, Runway Incursions, Altitude/Nav. busts, Improper diagnosis/solution of abnormals/emergencies, etc...
People defend the low-timer in the cockpit using the military as an example. However, we just aren't trained that extensively and that specialized. The military also has alot more resources, better standardization, training devices, methods, etc...list goes on and on why the military aviator is a better animal than us civilian trained folks. And, I WAS a former military flight crewmember with 4000 hours in helicopters as a sensor operator/rescue swimmer.
My biggest beef is that the low-timer just hasn't seen enough, done enough to be an asset in the cockpit during an unusual event just flying line nevermind during an emergency situation. Once again airline managers are relying, hoping, praying that the current paradigm doesn't create "the mother of all F***UPS". It is a pretty large risk given the stakes, but I am seeing the airline management as being more of a greedy, hungry animal that is nearly impossible to satisfy.
Mark is right, it is inevitable...I think to myself everyday how lucky we are to get paid to do this for a living. I temper that with a realization that we are all living on borrowed time as it is and still we keep pushing the envelope on what is practical and reasonable for safety.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

And that folks is from a 121 Checkairman.

 

[H46Bubba]

I just want to throw my .02 cents worth in and back up my buddy Mark. I've known him since he was a new-hire and he has always put 110% effort into his studies and work as a professional pilot. I applaud him for voicing what alot of people already are thinking. The next accident is not an "if" it's a "when". I certainly hope that we can all work to avoid that probability, but it is in fact inevitable if you were to look at from a statistics point of view. Factoring in the lower experience levels in the regional cockpit, disgruntled, fatigued and distracted pilots we are more lucky than we are adroit at avoiding the inevitable.
I always tell guys the idea is to accept the fact that you are going to make mistakes, and so are the people around you. However, the name of the game is to work EXTRA hard at avoiding the "mother of all F*** UPS". You know the kind CFIT, Runway Incursions, Altitude/Nav. busts, Improper diagnosis/solution of abnormals/emergencies, etc...
People defend the low-timer in the cockpit using the military as an example. However, we just aren't trained that extensively and that specialized. The military also has alot more resources, better standardization, training devices, methods, etc...list goes on and on why the military aviator is a better animal than us civilian trained folks. And, I WAS a former military flight crewmember with 4000 hours in helicopters as a sensor operator/rescue swimmer.
My biggest beef is that the low-timer just hasn't seen enough, done enough to be an asset in the cockpit during an unusual event just flying line nevermind during an emergency situation. Once again airline managers are relying, hoping, praying that the current paradigm doesn't create "the mother of all F***UPS". It is a pretty large risk given the stakes, but I am seeing the airline management as being more of a greedy, hungry animal that is nearly impossible to satisfy.
Mark is right, it is inevitable...I think to myself everyday how lucky we are to get paid to do this for a living. I temper that with a realization that we are all living on borrowed time as it is and still we keep pushing the envelope on what is practical and reasonable for safety.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

And for those civillian guys. Miltary flight training is as rigourous as it is due to lessons learned the hard way, plus the flying is more demanding than hauling 50 people behind you from point A-B. All the lessons the miltitary has learned be it pilot of maintenance has been written in blood. Tough sobering fact!

 

[kellwolf]

And that is all fine and good. You should be trying to do that. The problem is you are going to get thrown into an environment where many of the captains (not all, but defiantly some) don't want to take the time to "grow" you into a good pilot. They don't view that as their job. In the past when a pilot made it to a regional they had to learn a new plane and that was it. They already were competent in all other areas. Now captains are having to play CFIs in all sorts of aspects teaching basic IFR procedures, weather, airport operations and aerodynamics. It's not what they signed on to do and aren't really trained or compensated for it. Sure, many do it because it is the right thing do to and the are the good captains to fly with. But a lot of them don't and then gripe about how they are flying a high performance jet not only single pilot, but with one hand tied behind their back

All that said, don't for a minute think that I am saying you should turn down a regional job just because people don't feel you have the time for it. If they are going to hire you then you meet what ever requirements that the company has. You are in like Flynn. Just know that it really isn't the captain's job to teach you basic stuff. As I said, many will, and I think that is great. I wish I flew with more captains that were willing to teach.

I agree with everything above. When I was sitting at 250 hours, it scared the crap outta me that I could legally fly a King Air, much less an RJ. In fact, jtrain and I had a few conversations about that. Would I have turned down a job at those hours at a regional? No, and I don't blame the guys that do take the jobs. I blame management for heaping even more responsibility on overworked/underpaid regional CAs. We have a LOT of CAs here that never CFIed, never went through any kinda instructional training and had no desire whatsoever to do so. But, with all the low time guys in the right seat now, pretty much every CA might as well be a check airman now, just without the pay bump. Flychicaga made an EXCELLENT point. It is VERY easy to fake it in the right seat until your seniority comes up. You can go to <insert big flight academy here,> memorize the Gleim answers, do what your CFI tells you and get hired at a regional. THEN you can memorize more answers, play a big video game and do what all your CAs tell you. Finally, you have the seniority to hold CA for that fourth stripe and the pay. Now, it seems like a lot of people would say that this person has "earned" the right to be CA because he's passed his checkrides, knows his memory items/call outs, etc and has XXXX amount of time and seniority. I say BS. Unless he's been active in decision making on the flight deck, learning systems and asking himself questions, posing hypothetical situations while enroute instead of reading Maxim and trying to learn something from the CAs he flies with, he or she hasn't earned anything.

 

[meritflyer]

I amazed how the attitudes towards low timers and instructing have done a complete 180 just in the last year.