I'm going to start taking bets....

[Ophir]

Raising standards means raising pay to attract higher quality applicants. But why offer more pay to get more qualfied pilots? That just increases costs. So instead of attracting better quality candidates, lower the mins. keep the costs low.

i have been preaching this for a while. Lower time applicants equal lesss pay for the industry. This pilot shortage is a MANUFACTURED shortage. There are plenty of pilots out there. Just not enough to do it at the crap wages airlines are offering now.

Blee hit the nail on the head here. And Max, do you really believe in ju-ju? Seggy's right.

As the minimums go down, quality goes down. As quality goes down, safety goes down. We are being run by a bunch of MBA's that care only about the bottom line. Until catastrophe happens they will push it as long as they can. And when it happens they will blame it on the pilots. Which is exactly why we must do what Chicaga said and create more professional pilots. And, we have to stand by each other as a unified pilot group. I am so sick of the holier than thou pilot who is so ready to tattle-tail on his or her fellow pilot. [/rant]

 

[Ophir]

Dugie, what are you talking about?

:yeahthat:


Yeah, I don't get it. Have you spent time anywhere else? This is the most nurturing site out there.

 

[Ophir]

From your original post....



Implying, directly that you would like to trivialize by gambiling when the next major airline crash would occur at the regional level.
Doesn't seem really funny to me, actual appears in terrible taste.
You say your a very straightforward, cut the crap kind of guy on here as well as in real life, so apparently you must talk without thinking in real life also. It's one thing to say something then retract it or apoligize, but don't defend your idiotic statements. Think about it real hard, REAL HARD, about exactly what your saying;
The next time a plane crashes, burns, and is destroyed in impact killing anywhere from 50-80 people, you will be picking up the phone calling your friend and telling them that you won the bet. Thus you will profit from a horrid situation, the incentive of you profitting off of the crash would cause you to look at the situation as a positive won.
You said that, not me. Aircraft accidents are not jokes.

Are you kidding me? Take it easy with the hyberole bub. It was painfully clear that Seggy was making a metaphor to illustrate the declining standard in this industry. It will affect safety, without a doubt.

 

[Ophir]

Sorry, I have to respond to this one too. I guess I'm on a roll. I lurk all the time but not many posts getting me going like this one.

We'll speaking from a guy outside looking in, I can see how low time pilots may be a problem in the cockpit, I'm just hoping that as soon as I can apply to an airline, I will, and I hope the training department does their job

The training department's job is to teach you aircraft systems and how to apply your aeronautical knowledge to that particular plane, not teach you flying skills that should have been learned prior to your hiring. With that said though, you will learn more than you could ever imagine as a FO at at an airline. So the experiential training is huge. But don't rely on a training dept to give you skills other than those you will need to fly that specific plane.

and I hope the Captain does his to "grow" me into being a future captain with that airline.

Ostensibly it is not the captain's job to "grow" you. But the entire premise of this post has to do with the inordinant amount of pressure being put on captains who either don't want the responsibility and/or are not trained to deal with carrying the FO through the entire flight because they lack the basic skills to be there.

 

[DE727UPS]

Ophir...I remember you before you were a 121 pilot. Even then I had great respect for how you said things and what you said.

It would do this site good if you'd post here more.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I couldn't agree more with Don.

 

[DoWhat?]

Allow me to play the devils advocate here for a minute. At one point all, or at best most, of us were training as pilots in the civilian world. If there is real concern regarding the ability of our young/low time pilots, should we not direct that toward the FAA and their ridiculous standards? How many of you could offer a story about flying with a pilot who was "certified" by the FAA that scared the hell out of you?

 

[Dugie8]

Allow me to play the devils advocate here for a minute. At one point all, or at best most, of us were training as pilots in the civilian world. If there is real concern regarding the ability of our young/low time pilots, should we not direct that toward the FAA and their ridiculous standards? How many of you could offer a story about flying with a pilot who was "certified" by the FAA that scared the hell out of you?

DW

No, no, no, no. You don't understand. Fixing the problem isn't the goal here, being part of a group and beating down "nameless and faceless" people who just trying to make their way in this industry is what it is all about.

 

[jtrain609]

DW

No, no, no, no. You don't understand. Fixing the problem isn't the goal here, being part of a group and beating down "nameless and faceless" people who just trying to make their way in this industry is what it is all about.

You're being disingenuous to the conversation. Do you have something constructive to add?

 

[DE727UPS]

"Do you have something constructive to add?"

Don't worry about it....that's always been his best shot.

 

[jtrain609]

"Do you have something constructive to add?"

Don't worry about it....that's always been his best shot.

Naw, there's no reason for that Don. We're all guilty of it from time to time, and sometimes we ALL need a reminder that we're not adding anything constructive, myself included.

 

[Ophir]

Ophir...I remember you before you were a 121 pilot. Even then I had great respect for how you said things and what you said.

It would do this site good if you'd post here more.

I'm doing my best Don. My time is pulled thin by so many things. But a love of what I do and those who helped to where I am today certainly keeps me coming back. I owe Jetcareers a ton of gratitude and I will always be here. Thanks

 

[DoWhat?]

Ophir, are you still with SKYW?

 

[Ophir]

I couldn't agree more with Don.

How ironic, since it I have always admired and respected you so much Matt. I am glad that I can offer something to those who I respect so greatly. You are truly one of the rarest of people who works so hard, with respect, integrity, and professionalism. Thanks Matt!

 

[derg]

It might even be a good time for the powers that be to sit down and create a real-world standard for 121 flying.

Hours are hours, experience is experience and book knowledge is book knowledge, but I think we need a quantifiable metric to determine basic minimum standards for part 121.

Some people may cite the European system where you've got traditionally low-time pilots flying commercial airliners overseas. But if you take a peek at what I_Money was going to endure in order to apply to be a British Airways cadet, it was substantially more than signing up for a Floridian pilot mill or going down to the local FBO.

I think we're trying to solve the Airline Transport Association's problem they've created with our own help by agreeing to crappy contracts brought on by bankruptcy profiteering and shell-shocked union leadership.

There ARE appropriately qualified and experienced pilots out there, it's just not economically feasible for say, Typhoonpilot to return to fly passengers in US instead of in the middle east, or a highly experienced freight pilot to consider the switch to the passenger side of the business.

Hopefully the dwindling supply of pilots will provide leverage for negotiated change before something terrible happens with a planeload of passengers.

Things can improve, but who knows if they actually will. Don't, for a second, thing that an accountant sitting at "airline to work for du jour" isn't paying attention to applicants over at Skybus that are lining up to fly the Airbus for MegaLowMart rates.

If they can fill a ground school class with applicants happy that they'll be paid $70G's or so to fly an A-319, why in the heck do you expect that they'll pay you $200K at United in the future for the same equipment? We're pilots, we'll justify it by saying "But if I get some 319 time, I can build flight experience to apply to FedEx!"

I honestly don't know what the answer is. I sure in hell know it's not status quo.

My brain's fried. Me go bed now.

 

[meritflyer]

Well said Doug.

 

[Ophir]

Ophir, are you still with SKYW?

Yup, two years, and it feels like I am just getting started. In many ways I am just beginning to understand what is going on, and I don't think it is because of aptitude; it takes a long time. I hope to consider the upgrade for later this year. But I don't take the idea of wearing four stripes lightly. I have enormous respect for all the captains I fly with, even those whom I don't like.

 

[derg]

Word.

The captains that are a-holes to fly with help you learn the kind of captain that you don't want to be, which is just as important as learning what type of captain you'd like to be from the masters.

Last time I saw you, I flew you to Oakland. I kept referring to you as "Ophir" the next day to the captain and he couldn't figure out who the hell I was talking about. Bad habit of mine!

 

[flyover]

Are you kidding me? Take it easy with the hyberole bub. It was painfully clear that Seggy was making a metaphor to illustrate the declining standard in this industry. It will affect safety, without a doubt.

Can't even count how many times I've heard this over the decades. All while safety statistics improved dramatically.

The old guys just knew the industry was descending into chaos as hoards of civilian trained pilots moved into the new regionals. Of course, as someone mentioned, some of the most dangerous pilots on the planet were some of these experienced guys who knew lots of stuff and much of it was wrong. And the stats showed it.

Good training + good procedures + good equipment means an industry much safer that it was 10/20/30 years ago when all the captains were gray and very well paid.

It doesn't mean that things can't turn for the worse. And they may. But so far the dire warnings haven't panned out.

 

[Ophir]

Word.

The captains that are a-holes to fly with help you learn the kind of captain that you don't want to be, which is just as important as learning what type of captain you'd like to be from the masters.

Last time I saw you, I flew you to Oakland. I kept referring to you as "Ophir" the next day to the captain and he couldn't figure out who the hell I was talking about. Bad habit of mine!

Classic! I respond to pretty much everything, even #######

Yup, the grooming to become a captain certain is an abstract process that catches the "book-smart" unaware because the actual embodiment of a leader is someone who possesses great awareness and skill but maximizes the trust, respect, and effectiveness of those around him or her.