CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
And people will still be dead, so whats your point?
My point is that the regionals will not do anything until they are forced to. The FAA will put their foot down only after people die.
I'm going to start taking bets....
- Thread starter Seggy
- Start date
- Status
My point is that the regionals will not do anything until they are forced to. The FAA will put their foot down only after people die.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Yea, I know. They're not called the "tombstone agency" for nothing ya know!
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I didn't spout off BS! I never mentioned JAA training standards. Yeah, they are more strict.
But still doesn't change the fact that in that part of the world, they have low timer F/Os that get in the right seat with 200-350 hours total time. That's not BS, but fact. We aren't talking about training standards. We were talking about low time F/Os occupying Jet seats.
I personally know a gentlemen at Gulf Air who started with 210 hours into the right seat of the A320.
He was an ab initio pilot.
S.T.Aviator
Well-Known Member
Most of the kids from India and China will leave North American Flight Schools with 250 hrs and a wet comm license. As soon as they get home they get hired and sent to get typed on A320, B737, ATR's and are sitting right seat within months. There have been ten students that I have kept in contact with from my school that are flying Heavy Jets at this moment.
Things are getting crazy globaly!
Can't speak for the middle eastern ab-initio programs, but I'd like to see some 600 hour american regional pilots compete for an ab-initio position for some european carriers.
The applicants for those positions MUST possess a degree in something scientific...i.e. engineering or mathematics. As part of the selection process, they take (after individually preparing, not gleim either) several aviation exams just to prove they'll be able to get by the craploads of exams required for the JAA ATP. After that, they get tested on coordination, dexterity, cognitive ability and a whole bunch of other stuff.....
The guys that get selected for the low time ab-initio programs (at least the ones I'm familiar with) deserve the position they're in. By the time they actually step foot into the training facility, they have proven to be better than possibly thousands of their peers. Their natural ability and skill makes up for the initial lack of experience. After 10 or 15 years in the right seat (which is probably a low estimate), their experience combines with their skill and they upgrade. IMO, we shouldn't be comparing ab-initio pilots in foreign countries to our low time pilots because there really isn't a comparison to be made.....
blee256
Well-Known Member
Raising standards means raising pay to attract higher quality applicants. But why offer more pay to get more qualfied pilots? That just increases costs. So instead of attracting better quality candidates, lower the mins. keep the costs low.
i have been preaching this for a while. Lower time applicants equal lesss pay for the industry. This pilot shortage is a MANUFACTURED shortage. There are plenty of pilots out there. Just not enough to do it at the crap wages airlines are offering now.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Now, I would argue this is a good sign. Not because lower time pilots are getting jobs, but because the mins keep going down BECAUSE these places cannot fill the classes. Maybe, just maybe, the word is getting out that flying for 20K (gross) a year just isn't worth it.
But hey, this is JC, why focus on the positive when we all can jump on a bandwagon and make ourselves feel better bashing people we don't know. I'll bring the sock, someone else supply the handful of quarters.
But hey, this is JC, why focus on the positive when we all can jump on a bandwagon and make ourselves feel better bashing people we don't know. I'll bring the sock, someone else supply the handful of quarters.
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
Dugie, what are you talking about?
Nick
Well-Known Member
I think I see what Dugie is saying.
If a regional airline cannot fill its new hire classes enough to staff its fleet as people move from the right seat to the left, then they will have to provide more incentive for people to work there.
The thing is, that doesn't seem to be happening -- yet. TSA has apparently reached a point where they are literally at the hourmark of a part 61 commercial pilot with no further experience than the training that was required of them to earn that certificate. I guess the only lower they could go would be part 141 commercial pilots in the 190ish hour range...the general concensus would probably be that is NOT really enough hours to be a useful FO, especially when you're in a situation with a new captain who needs all the FO support they can get.
I'm tired and I'm rambling but I think that is the point Dugie is trying to make. I sort of agree but I don't think it is necessarily good. The only good thing about it might be that it's about the lowest the minimums can go.
If a regional airline cannot fill its new hire classes enough to staff its fleet as people move from the right seat to the left, then they will have to provide more incentive for people to work there.
The thing is, that doesn't seem to be happening -- yet. TSA has apparently reached a point where they are literally at the hourmark of a part 61 commercial pilot with no further experience than the training that was required of them to earn that certificate. I guess the only lower they could go would be part 141 commercial pilots in the 190ish hour range...the general concensus would probably be that is NOT really enough hours to be a useful FO, especially when you're in a situation with a new captain who needs all the FO support they can get.
I'm tired and I'm rambling but I think that is the point Dugie is trying to make. I sort of agree but I don't think it is necessarily good. The only good thing about it might be that it's about the lowest the minimums can go.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
Exactly Nick, thank you. The lowering of time (mins) isn't a good thing as far as experience level in the cockpit goes, BUT, the continued lowering only points to one thing, the trouble these airlines are having with filling classes, or at least getting enough people into these classes to have any chance of "graduating" enough to fly the line.
Another point to consider, almost all of us were hired on with with FO rates being the exact same as they are now. Some places have raised the first and second year rates, but still nowhere they need to be. But we somehow don't bear any of the responsibility, it is all of the "SJS 300 hour wonders" that are responsible for the decline of this profession.
Another point to consider, almost all of us were hired on with with FO rates being the exact same as they are now. Some places have raised the first and second year rates, but still nowhere they need to be. But we somehow don't bear any of the responsibility, it is all of the "SJS 300 hour wonders" that are responsible for the decline of this profession.
Just a few things....
Have the CA mins been lowered?
How many here have been hired at low mins?
How many of those planes have ended up smoking holes in the ground (other than pcl) and been attributed to the low time?
Like FlyChicaga it's not so much the quantity, but quality of the hours.
Let's not start pulling up the ladder.
Some may not like it, but it is what it is. There are openings and it is obvious that companies are having trouble filling the classes.
That being said, I can see this trickling down to the FBO's and other training facilities. Many students become a CFI to build hours, to train for a job, flying for an airline, freight, etc......
Why would a student continue the CFI gig if he/she can get to an airline type job right away and that was their goal?
....In closing, back to Mark's original statement, until that happens the public could not care any less. They are worried about getting from A to B for the least amount of $$$$. When I last took a regional with some of my co-workers I mentioned how low some of these airlines are hiring and they just shrugged their shoulders.
....edit.....
the low time is just getting the foot in the door. These people still have to pass ground school, IOE, and I assume some type of probation. Now if they are being pushed through GS and IOE then that is a bigger issue. For the CA's out there, do you have any recourse or say in what is happening on the line or do you have to take what you getting in the way of F/O's?
Have the CA mins been lowered?
How many here have been hired at low mins?
How many of those planes have ended up smoking holes in the ground (other than pcl) and been attributed to the low time?
Like FlyChicaga it's not so much the quantity, but quality of the hours.
Let's not start pulling up the ladder.
Some may not like it, but it is what it is. There are openings and it is obvious that companies are having trouble filling the classes.
That being said, I can see this trickling down to the FBO's and other training facilities. Many students become a CFI to build hours, to train for a job, flying for an airline, freight, etc......
Why would a student continue the CFI gig if he/she can get to an airline type job right away and that was their goal?
....In closing, back to Mark's original statement, until that happens the public could not care any less. They are worried about getting from A to B for the least amount of $$$$. When I last took a regional with some of my co-workers I mentioned how low some of these airlines are hiring and they just shrugged their shoulders.
....edit.....
the low time is just getting the foot in the door. These people still have to pass ground school, IOE, and I assume some type of probation. Now if they are being pushed through GS and IOE then that is a bigger issue. For the CA's out there, do you have any recourse or say in what is happening on the line or do you have to take what you getting in the way of F/O's?
jml2992
Pigeon Mutilator
This is obviously posted as a joke...but Dugie has to be a regional airline FO...He can't even find the quarters to put in the sock.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Mark, just to ask to get the idea:
1. How long have you been at Colgan?
2. What were your times when you hired in?
3. Do you happen to know the approx hours of the first non-IOE CA was?
I know it has been sliding the past year really bad, but I don't remember from years before.
Also, just add it to your next negociation with management that CA will NOT fly with a FO with less then XX TT. That would solve it, right?
1. How long have you been at Colgan?
2. What were your times when you hired in?
3. Do you happen to know the approx hours of the first non-IOE CA was?
I know it has been sliding the past year really bad, but I don't remember from years before.
Also, just add it to your next negociation with management that CA will NOT fly with a FO with less then XX TT. That would solve it, right?
AmazingPilot
Well-Known Member
Hey Segs just curious what did you get hired on at Colgan with???
Taking a bet to see which regional will be the next one to crash is a incredibily horrible thing to do or say.
I have flown with FOs with 500 hours and I have flown with FOs with 3,000 hours, to be perfectly honest, they are both new to the aircraft they were in at the time and performed comparably to one another.
Last I checked hiring minimums got the interview, not the job. If the applicant has proven him/herself successful through training then perhaps they may deserve a little more credit then the hours in their logbook.
A person, such as yourself, should not have this attitude especially this close to upgrade. Here is a little pointer for you, don't look at the person in the right seat as a liabillity because it will greatly hinder your ability as a PIC.
Oh and by the way if I ever had a jumpseater question the qualifications and abilities of my entire flight crew, that jumpseater WILL BE taking the later flight, guaranteed.
txrevolution
New Member
We had a guy from africa who had the carrier job already and was sent to the states to get his PPL and Instrument tickets and thats all they were requiring. 
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Freight is deadly.
turbojet28
Well-Known Member
Chicaga,
I could not agree more with what you posted earlier. I am merely an instrument rated private pilot, but I see many of my peers taking attitudes where they feel as if they are entitled to a "jet job" right away after they get 300 hours or so. As someone who has tried to keep a level head and just "shut up and listen", it kind of gets annoying. I don't at all believe I am any better than anyone else. Quite the contrary, actually. But, I do see that many of my peers have cocky, ass-backward attitudes about this profession. I feel I've gotten a pretty good start on a good education about this industry from these boards over the past 5 years. Many talk of it as an entitlement for their "hard earned 300 hours" instead of a highly respected trade in which there is always someone who can teach you things. I personally don't see how you should be entitled to a jet job when you can't even get a 90 on a written, and even after studying the Gleim books.
Chicaga, could you maybe provide some of the things that happen everyday on the line that you think could cause an accident from inexperience? I would be very interested to know your opinion so I can add to the things in my imaginary inventory of things to "work on".
I could not agree more with what you posted earlier. I am merely an instrument rated private pilot, but I see many of my peers taking attitudes where they feel as if they are entitled to a "jet job" right away after they get 300 hours or so. As someone who has tried to keep a level head and just "shut up and listen", it kind of gets annoying. I don't at all believe I am any better than anyone else. Quite the contrary, actually. But, I do see that many of my peers have cocky, ass-backward attitudes about this profession. I feel I've gotten a pretty good start on a good education about this industry from these boards over the past 5 years. Many talk of it as an entitlement for their "hard earned 300 hours" instead of a highly respected trade in which there is always someone who can teach you things. I personally don't see how you should be entitled to a jet job when you can't even get a 90 on a written, and even after studying the Gleim books.
Chicaga, could you maybe provide some of the things that happen everyday on the line that you think could cause an accident from inexperience? I would be very interested to know your opinion so I can add to the things in my imaginary inventory of things to "work on".
- Status