Formation Landings

[Pilot Fighter]

Air Force Stops T-38 Formation Landings After 2019 Fatal Crash | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The Combat Air Force has almost completely ended the practice of formation landings, and as a result, instructor pilots are no longer as proficient in it.

www.airforcemag.com

 

[ryan1234]

I'm a bit surprised (not really) that the AF chose to go in this direction. Form landings in the 38 aren't exactly cosmic and I don't think they're more unsafe than say, a wing approach in hard IMC. Having said that, there is a certain level of proficiency required to fly the 38.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I'm a bit surprised (not really) that the AF chose to go in this direction. Form landings in the 38 aren't exactly cosmic and I don't think they're more unsafe than say, a wing approach in hard IMC. Having said that, there is a certain level of proficiency required to fly the 38.

My gut reaction was that it has been done for decades and shouldn't be that challenging but couldn't argue with it not being an unnecessary risk.

 

[MikeD]

The skills needed for form takeoffs and landings, are just as important as the reasons for being able to perform the maneuvers themselves.

Typical USAF idiocy. If something is “too hard”, just lower the standard until it isn’t anymore.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

The skills needed for form takeoffs and landings, are just as important as the reasons for being able to perform the maneuvers themselves.

Typical USAF idiocy. If something is “too hard”, just lower the standard until it isn’t anymore.

I can't recall any landing mishaps of this nature. It seems a constructive way to demonstrate control during approach and landing. Once again, I feel old. Eventually a senator will console a grieving parent by telling them a carrier is too small to land planes on.

 

[MikeD]

I can't recall any landing mishaps of this nature. It seems a constructive way to demonstrate control during approach and landing. Once again, I feel old. Eventually a senator will console a grieving parent by telling them a carrier is too small to land planes on.

There have been very few, if any. And many more instances of aircraft saved during emergencies by being able to undertake this evolution; not to mention in normal ops being able to accomplish surge launch and recovery operations much faster than single ship. We’ve been training on this and having it as a currency for many decades; all of a sudden it’s a dangerous evolution all because a student pilot overcorrected a drift on landing and the IP wasn’t quick enough in intervening to prevent the mishap? So the parents through their lawyer claim this is an unsafe maneuver, as if they would even know, and just like that the bar is lowered and Training Command capitulates to this? What’s next....a crash on takeoff, so now takeoffs are too risky?

Doesn’t help that the current head of Training Command is a career helicopter guy who went through when there was a completely separate helo track in the USAF, and thus hasn’t ever flown anything fixed wing as a qualed pilot. And hence, has no appreciation for the application of said maneuvers, both in normal as well as emergency ops, and the requisite skill sets in airmanship, precise aircraft control, and SA that training in these develops.

ive personally seen the benefit of this training and proficiency in both normal as well as emergency operations.

Everything with formation is getting more and more pansy-ass; it’s no wonder why these USAF flybys honoring healthcare workers in the past 2 weeks have had formations that look like complete and utter dog crap.

 

[ryan1234]

The skills needed for form takeoffs and landings, are just as important as the reasons for being able to perform the maneuvers themselves.

Typical USAF idiocy. If something is “too hard”, just lower the standard until it isn’t anymore.

When it comes down to it, you're flying a form approach and then landing on a 75' piece of runway rather than a 150' piece of runway. However, most of the formation at UPT is not taught by fighter guys, so there's that.

 

[MikeD]

As it comes to formations, compare our POS formations that have been seen over various US cities in the past 2 weeks, to these formations by the Russkies. Even the helicopter formations.....which here in the USA usually look like a gaggle of aircraft merely happening to be going the same way on the same day.....these helos are actually tight and spaced perfectly. Hell the IL-76 and TU-95 formations are tighter than many of our USAF fighter formations!

 

[esa17]

What about section recoveries where -2 lands 1nm or less from lead?

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

Tight formations during flight at tactically stupid..... fight me!

 

[MikeD]

Tight formations during flight at tactically stupid..... fight me!

Depends what you’re doing. There’s application for them at certain phases of flight.

 

[MikeD]

What about section recoveries where -2 lands 1nm or less from lead?

a drag, is akin to two planes landing separately.

 

[Low_Level_Hell]

Depends what you’re doing. There’s application for them at certain phases of flight.

Does formation flying improve range? I'm trying not to think like a helicopter pilot right now and it's hurting my brain.

 

[MikeD]

Does formation flying improve range? I'm trying not to think like a helicopter pilot right now and it's hurting my brain.

Want fuel from a tanker jet? Better know how to fly tight formation in order to join up, hook up, and get it. Checking another aircraft after weapons expenditures, requires close form around the other aircraft in order to make a worthwhile check. Aircraft with an emergency where it can’t navigate or communicate, or electrical failure, and solid undercast? Needs to know how to fly close form to be lead down through the weather by another jet. Surge launch and recovery operations? Better know how to do close form and maintain it for takeoffs and landings. So there is practical application to it for certain operations and certain phases of flight.

 

[esa17]

a drag, is akin to two planes landing separately.

We perform those from the break and the drag and call them a “section recovery”. I’m wondering if those will be verboten.

 

[MikeD]

We perform those from the break and the drag and call them a “section recovery”. I’m wondering if those will be verboten.

You talking separating in the break from the overhead?

 

[esa17]

You talking separating in the break from the overhead?

Correct.

 

[MikeD]

Correct.

Just a normal overhead pattern then. Nothing new with that. Unless those now get deemed to be dangerous by the parents of the next person who kills themselves doing one.

 

[Lawman]

Tight formations during flight at tactically stupid..... fight me!

*Laughs in Degraded Visual Environment Formation Assault landings*

There are actually a host of tactical scenarios where tight formation flying are critical skills. Not the least of which is maneuvering in and around a C-130 with and 80 foot hose dangling out of it along with 3 of your buddies.

For most of the leadership working up to that skill set are simply far to risky in exposure training the force to the task for it to be worth the reward. Same reason we don’t fly nearly enough NOE or combat maneuvering flight. Too much likelihood of bending metal or overtorque so don’t do that. We rob our aviators of a perishable skill set that they may need in future by telling ourselves that war will never happen.




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[Low_Level_Hell]

*Laughs in Degraded Visual Environment Formation Assault landings*........

Oh I get it. My facetiousness was lost on here. I can recall several years ago where our MO was to fly low at a 5 to 10 ten disk formation cause that's how we were expected to fly and it didn't work out so well. It limited the reaction to contact options, demanded a lot of focus form the person flying (especially with legacy NVS), and was riskier than it needed to be. It's old news now but 4th ID lost two AHs from flying that way.