Envoy Hiring

Avalon781ML

Well-Known Member
Man this whole post was amazing, but for some reason this has me dying.

Any idea if this character was hired in the mid 2000’s?
Rest assured that most of the fine pilots at AA hired in the last decade do not hold the same opinions as Dacuj... quite the opposite in my experience.
Also... he wasn’t hired at AA... he flowed.
Furloughed for 3 months? And paid to sit home and maybe still doing so. Id hardly say that was a the determining factor of whether or not their career choice was a solid one or not.
Try 9 months... 2 declared bankruptcy and 1 is now divorced. I’d say that is a significant difference compared to those that didn’t get furloughed. Meanwhile the LCCs started hiring again whilst AA recalls their furloughed pilots.
 

Kingairer

'Tiger Team' Member
Rest assured that most of the fine pilots at AA hired in the last decade do not hold the same opinions as Dacuj... quite the opposite in my experience.
Also... he wasn’t hired at AA... he flowed.


Try 9 months... 2 declared bankruptcy and 1 is now divorced. I’d say that is a significant difference compared to those that didn’t get furloughed. Meanwhile the LCCs started hiring again whilst AA recalls their furloughed pilots.
9 months maybe, but almost all of that was covered with PPP money. May have been 3 without a paycheck in the worst of circumstances. If you declare bankruptcy (insert micheal scott) after 9 months, youre managing money wrong. If your spouse leaves you after being laid off for 9 months, similar. All furloughees have been recalled, continue to receive a check while they wait for training. AA has stated they will hire 300 this year and at least 600 next year. I'm not saying LCC was a wrong choice, but I also dont think sticking around will end up being wrong either.
 

Avalon781ML

Well-Known Member
9 months maybe, but almost all of that was covered with PPP money. May have been 3 without a paycheck in the worst of circumstances. If you declare bankruptcy (insert micheal scott) after 9 months, youre managing money wrong. If your spouse leaves you after being laid off for 9 months, similar. All furloughees have been recalled, continue to receive a check while they wait for training. AA has stated they will hire 300 this year and at least 600 next year. I'm not saying LCC was a wrong choice, but I also dont think sticking around will end up being wrong either.
I agree with what you are saying here... previously I was simply refuting Dacuj’s implied statement that going to an LCC at any point instead of waiting around for a flow number was a bad decision.
 

USMCmech

Well-Known Member
I agree with what you are saying here... previously I was simply refuting Dacuj’s implied statement that going to an LCC at any point instead of waiting around for a flow number was a bad decision.
I hate to say it but I agree with him. However like CC, he makes his point so poorly that it gets lost in the noise.

Leaving Mesa for Spirit is a good idea. Leaving Envoy for Spirit might pay off, but long term I would stay and plan on flowing to AA.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
I hate to say it but I agree with him. However like CC, he makes his point so poorly that it gets lost in the noise.

Leaving Mesa for Spirit is a good idea. Leaving Envoy for Spirit might pay off, but long term I would stay and plan on flowing to AA.
Who knows? AA went to 50b in debt to survive covid. They just paid bake about 3b, but seems like a tough number to overcome. Meanwhile, Spirit is aggressively taking aircraft deliveries.
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
I hate to say it but I agree with him. However like CC, he makes his point so poorly that it gets lost in the noise.

Leaving Mesa for Spirit is a good idea. Leaving Envoy for Spirit might pay off, but long term I would stay and plan on flowing to AA.
Someone from my new hire class at Eagle, went to Spirit in 2011 or 2012. He is millions ahead of the guys that stayed and flowed. They will never be able to make up the difference. I should add he sleeps in his own bed all but 4 nights a month.
 

Avalon781ML

Well-Known Member
I hate to say it but I agree with him. However like CC, he makes his point so poorly that it gets lost in the noise.

Leaving Mesa for Spirit is a good idea. Leaving Envoy for Spirit might pay off, but long term I would stay and plan on flowing to AA.
That’s cool... everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But, in my opinion, if one were to compare the financials of Spirit vs AA... and base your long term decision making on that information the educated majority would choose Spirit.

How many furloughs are worth choosing AA over Spirit? How much did AA pilots lose in retirement contributions during the last year that Spirit pilots did not? What happens if next time something like COVID occurs the American taxpayer doesn’t bail AA out?
 

FlyinSol0

Well-Known Member
I’m glad I stayed at envoy, I ended up flowing. Couldn’t get a call from any LCC much less a major. Stopped applying anywhere except DL UA AA for the last two years before I flowed. 8 years for me. My first student flowed from PSA after 5 years.

Who knows what the future will bring. I’m supposedly retiring sub 200 at AA. Or we go Chapter 7, or the world implodes, or we get stapled to commutair. Dacuj is a troll, don’t play his game. But don’t totally discount a flow either. YMMV
 

USMCmech

Well-Known Member
Someone from my new hire class at Eagle, went to Spirit in 2011 or 2012. He is millions ahead of the guys that stayed and flowed. They will never be able to make up the difference. I should add he sleeps in his own bed all but 4 nights a month.
Leaving Eagle back in 2011 for any major was a good idea. Staying put in hopes that "someday" they would have a flow program with AA would have been idiotic. Today, if I were at Envoy/PSA/Peidmont I would pass on Spirit or Frontier. I would wait for the flow while applying at the rest of the majors.

Of course you do what is best for you. I've got plenty of buds at Frontier or Spirit and they are happy there.
 

Yakob

The Most Depressing Person
I hate to say it but I agree with him. However like CC, he makes his point so poorly that it gets lost in the noise.

Leaving Mesa for Spirit is a good idea. Leaving Envoy for Spirit might pay off, but long term I would stay and plan on flowing to AA.
You'd be mad to turn down an offer from a major so you can wait around for a flow that may or may not happen, even if it's "just" a ULCC such as Spirit. Envoy could easily be Comaired before you get the chance to flow, or the flow could be cancelled. Compass once had a flow and now they've gone the way of Comair. So has ExpressJet, which I understand used to have a flow that was cancelled a number of years before they went out of business.

I do think it's a good idea to go to a regional with a flow, in case you can't get hired at the majors outside of one, but staying at a regional any longer than you have to is madness seeing as regionals keep getting Comaired left and right.
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
I’m glad I stayed at envoy, I ended up flowing. Couldn’t get a call from any LCC much less a major. Stopped applying anywhere except DL UA AA for the last two years before I flowed. 8 years for me. My first student flowed from PSA after 5 years.

Who knows what the future will bring. I’m supposedly retiring sub 200 at AA. Or we go Chapter 7, or the world implodes, or we get stapled to commutair. Dacuj is a troll, don’t play his game. But don’t totally discount a flow either. YMMV
8 Years? You must of been the low number on the flow because I was a 4/2008 and it was 11 years, so more than likely you are a 2011 DOH and you flow was low because Eagle didn't hire for 3 years.
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
Leaving Eagle back in 2011 for any major was a good idea. Staying put in hopes that "someday" they would have a flow program with AA would have been idiotic. Today, if I were at Envoy/PSA/Peidmont I would pass on Spirit or Frontier. I would wait for the flow while applying at the rest of the majors.

Of course you do what is best for you. I've got plenty of buds at Frontier or Spirit and they are happy there.
Eagle had a flow in 2011, he wanted nothing to do with waiting around for the flow.
 

BigZ

Well-Known Member
Our attrition increased 300% last month or two. Few more I know with class dates at other places. If AA hires 600 next year, we flow 12/mo. Perfect number with the current formula is something like 960 new hires at AA, then we flow 20/mo. Nowhere near 50% of the class it used to be.
 

FlyinSol0

Well-Known Member
8 Years? You must of been the low number on the flow because I was a 4/2008 and it was 11 years, so more than likely you are a 2011 DOH and you flow was low because Eagle didn't hire for 3 years.
Yep. Little over 8 years, so prolly a low number for Envoy. Had covid not hit, it was gonna drop years again pretty quick, as I was the bottom of the list for a couple years post bankruptcy with no hiring. PSA and PDT hit 5, might’ve broken it, I dunno.

I would’ve gone to spirit at year 3-4 like your buddy at that time, especially in that environment. But like you, I didn’t ‍<shrug> Those spots didn’t hand themselves out, unfortunately for me.

All I know is I, along with thousands (yes literally multiple thousands) of pilots, got a job people bust their asses trying to get, just because of the flow. Despite a few grumpy arseholes, most of my coworkers have been very happy with their choice.
 

Autothrust Blue

Did Not Grow Up
I like money
Me too, we should hang out.

To put it another way, the Company contributions alone here relatively quickly surpassed what I saved and what they contributed in my 7ish years of RJ drudgery. (I could go find out exactly when they did, if anyone's curious, but it did not take very long whatsoever. x percent of nothing is still, carry the one, nothing.)
 

Kingairer

'Tiger Team' Member
Don't forget to look at all the retirement money on the table. I should be able to retire early just by going to the zoo.
I think every LCC/Major has direct contribution to 401K. Is staying at a regional 3 more years going to make that difference of retiring early or not considering that after 3 years it would be at a higher rate?
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
I think every LCC/Major has direct contribution to 401K. Is staying at a regional 3 more years going to make that difference of retiring early or not considering that after 3 years it would be at a higher rate?
A dollar today is always worth more than a future dollar, especially when you're factoring in compound interest. It also includes things like 911, 2008, and covid. 3 "once in lifetime" events that happened inside of 20 years. Who knows what will happen in the future.
 
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