Eagle Management Comes Back to the Table Despite Threats

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Seriously. You can teach someone with a good attitude to do pretty much anything.

And it takes a long time to do it, too. I wonder how many bad things will happen in the interim as a result of having inexperienced people in place? I wouldn't want to find out.

So my answer is neither.

Your answer isn't possible. You have to elect someone. You can either elect someone with knowledge and experience (who you think is "horrible" at what he does, despite the fact that you don't have the experience to determine whether he's good or not), or you can elect someone who has no experience and no knowledge. Pick one! Because without fail, the people who have knowledge and experience are the ones you don't like, because they don't tell you what you want to hear. You want puppets, not leaders. You want someone who will ask you what you want to hear, and then regurgitate it back to you. The only person who would do such a thing is a person with no experience, because those who have it know better.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You mean like what you're doing? Because you're certainly not a professional negotiator. Watching somebody work, and then claiming to know what you're doing means that I can drive the Space Shuttle.

I'm only telling you what I hear from the pros. Seggy has done the same. When we go in to bargain, we don't do it ourselves. We take our professional negotiators, who helped to prepare our proposals. We submit the proposals and explain them, then we get the counter. When the counter comes, we go back to our caucus rooms to hear what the pros have to say. Sometimes we hand the chair over to the pros to let them deliver our response. Etc.

I've seen pilots who don't do that. They don't want to listen to the pros, because they think they know better. The pros will gladly sit back and let you screw yourself over if that's what you want. It never turns out well, of course. It's like handing the controls of a jet over to an MS Flight Sim jockey.

 

[derg]

However, it seems that you and @Seggy are fully crossing the line from "educating" to "dictating".

They know.

It's a dead horse.

They understand.

You can beat that dead horse as much as you'd like and if they come up with a different conclusion, further beating of that horse will render nothing.

I fully know how it felt when I voted our last TA down turning bankruptcy and I had every Tom, Dick and Harry telling me what I should do. I fully remember "They ain't screwing around man, you're voting yourself out of a job!" from union leadership, colleagues at regionals, other majors and people who were all hopped up on the last Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

Maybe you feel that @Firebird2XC doesn't, but the consequences are his to suffer, he's engaged and, at this point, that's his business.

I've been right there where he is and you need to back off and let them do their thing.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

And it takes a long time to do it, too. I wonder how many bad things will happen in the interim as a result of having inexperienced people in place? I wouldn't want to find out.



Your answer isn't possible. You have to elect someone. You can either elect someone with knowledge and experience (who you think is "horrible" at what he does, despite the fact that you don't have the experience to determine whether he's good or not), or you can elect someone who has no experience and no knowledge. Pick one! Because without fail, the people who have knowledge and experience are the ones you don't like, because they don't tell you what you want to hear. You want puppets, not leaders. You want someone who will ask you what you want to hear, and then regurgitate it back to you. The only person who would do such a thing is a person with no experience, because those who have it know better.

First off, I don't dislike people with knowledge and experience. Just ones who have false ideas of grandeur about how good they are at what they do.

I still go with the level headed people, regardless of experience.

And you're not hearing what I'm saying. I don't want people to tell me what I want to hear. I don't want to hear a damn thing. Present facts, let me decide, put my decisions into actions. THAT is the union's job. Nothing more.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

However, it seems that you and @Seggy are fully crossing the line from "educating" to "dictating".

If you can show me where either @Seggy or I have told anyone at EGL how to vote, I'll buy your dinner at your steak house of choice at NJC this year.

 

[CirrusMonkey]

In which case I would like everyone to know that I'm a porn star.

Me three

 

[derg]

If you can show me where either @Seggy or I have told anyone at EGL how to vote, I'll buy your dinner at your steak house of choice at NJC this year.

Nah, I don't need steak or a challenge, however the culmination of the way you two have talked people down on the forum who found conclusions different than yours, on this topic, is incredible.

Trade unionism shouldn't be treated like holding a sign in front of an abortion clinic. By the time that preggers girl approaches the clinic, she's made a very tough decision. Maybe she's seen the facts, maybe she's making a decision out of fear and anger, but you can wave your sign, scream that she's a murderer, but at the end of the day, you're not helping the situation.

Eagle pilots know what's beyond those doors. It's been explained, hashed, re-hashed, force fed, threatened, etc.

They know.

Doesn't matter how you feel from the safety of ATN or how I feel from the safety of DAL, they already know what they're facing and will make the best decision they can.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Nah, I don't need steak or a challenge, however the culmination of the way you two have talked people down on the forum who found conclusions different than yours, on this topic, is incredible.

Simply the perception of someone who, just like @Screaming_Emu, wants his union leaders to tell him what he wants to hear, rather than telling him the truth.

 

[USMCmech]

NO ONE HAS SAID ANY SUCH THING!

That's pretty much what it sounds like to me.

Perception is reality.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Simply the perception of someone who, just like @Screaming_Emu, wants his union leaders to tell him what he wants to hear, rather than telling him the truth.

Hah...I'd settle for my union leaders telling me something....anything really.

Hello....Buehler....Buehler.

Before the TA was voted down, the ball as completely in our MEC's court. They took it...passed it back and forth. Dry humped it. Deflated it. Filled it back up again.

The only real communication that was this oft referenced "folder of questionnaires" that they'd point to in the back of the conference room with some explanation of "yeah, when you guys leave we put them in a box. The secretary goes through and reads them and compiles them into a spreadsheet."

That's basically the extent to which I was asked what I wanted in a TA.

You are speaking about stuff you aren't involved in and putting words in my mouth. Its cute.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

That's pretty much what it sounds like to me.

Perception is reality.

I can't fix your faulty perceptions. I guess you just need to learn how to read a bit better.

 

[derg]

Simply the perception of someone who, just like @Screaming_Emu, wants his union leaders to tell him what he wants to hear, rather than telling him the truth.

That's between you and @Screaming_Emu and besides, you're not his "union leader".

Maybe he's heard the truth, but he digested the information differently than you.

If you don't think the average line pilot can interpret data and come to a prudent, independent conclusion, let's stop beating around the bush and eliminate membership ratification.

If the powers-that-be, in modern ALPA, think we don't have the brains to vote without your analysis, end it. Otherwise, if given the opportunity to vote, I will vote according to what I think reflects my best interests.

It doesn't matter how you feel, it doesn't matter how I feel, but we need to step out of the way and let Eagle decide which path it chooses.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

You are speaking about stuff you aren't involved in and putting words in my mouth. Its cute.

No, I'm going by exactly what you've said here repeatedly. You've been quite clear that you want your union leaders to not "sell" anything. You want them to simply throw it out there and give you the choice without any explanation of why you should vote for it. You don't want them to be leaders.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

That's between you and @Screaming_Emu and besides, you're not his "union leader".

You might want to read the Constitution & Bylaws a little closer.

If you don't think the average line pilot can interpret data and come to a prudent, independent conclusion, let's stop beating around the bush and eliminate membership ratification.

No one is a bigger proponent of membership ratification than me. Ask any AirTran pilot. I'm the guy who started the petition under the NPA to make membership ratification a requirement. I'm the guy who wrote the MEC Policy Manual requiring membership ratification. Not just for contract TAs, but for any change to the pilots' contract. But that doesn't mean that leaders don't provide explanations and make recommendations. The pilots make the ultimate decision, but they should do so with all of the information in hand. And the leaders are the ones who have to provide it.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I can't fix your faulty perceptions. I guess you just need to learn how to read a bit better.

This comment pretty much sums up your communication style.

Sentence one: I don't agree with you.
Sentence two: So therefore, I shall insult you.

Look. I would hope that you would at least agree that ALPA representatives work in the service of their pilots. When they aren't working to that end anymore, its probably time to take them out to pasture. Can you at least agree with me on that?

With that presumably agreed upon, now go back and look at pretty much all of your posts on the subject...in all 800 of Charlie's threads. Look at who has agreed with you. Look at who has clicked the "like" button to what you have said. Its Seggy....and not many others.

Now it is possible that pretty much everyone else doesn't agree with you, but you actually have the clearer picture. But in my personal experience, usually when I'm the only one standing around and saying something...usually I'm the one that is wrong.

 

[derg]

You might want to read the Constitution & Bylaws a little closer.

I have recently and I fully disagree with your assertion that it's a "leader" as opposed to a "representative".

Shall we wake up ALPA legal during her slumber and have her clarify?

 

[Screaming_Emu]

No, I'm going by exactly what you've said here repeatedly. You've been quite clear that you want your union leaders to not "sell" anything. You want them to simply throw it out there and give you the choice without any explanation of why you should vote for it. You don't want them to be leaders.

Because they aren't really leaders per say. They're people appointed to do stuff for us. When they start making decisions on what is best for me without really consulting me, its time to go.

 

[USMCmech]

I can't fix your faulty perceptions.

On the contrary, if you are going to advocate for a position then it is your job to fix my faulty perceptions. It is my job to listen with an open mind.

I agree Chalie's tone is inflammatory, but sometimes that role must be played. Without Sam Adams causing a riot and waging a low level insurgency, his brother John would never had the opportunity to contribute to the Declaration of Independence.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Look. I would hope that you would at least agree that ALPA representatives work in the service of their pilots. When they aren't working to that end anymore, its probably time to take them out to pasture. Can you at least agree with me on that?

Absolutely. But "working in the service of the pilots" means doing what is best for them. Not telling them what they want to hear. That is where the fundamental disconnect is. I will tell you the truth, not tell you what you want to hear. A lot of times the truth is not encouraging. That's life.

With that presumably agreed upon, now go back and look at pretty much all of your posts on the subject...in all 800 of Charlie's threads. Look at who has agreed with you. Look at who has clicked the "like" button to what you have said. Its Seggy....and not many others.

Now it is possible that pretty much everyone else doesn't agree with you, but you actually have the clearer picture. But in my personal experience, usually when I'm the only one standing around and saying something...usually I'm the one that is wrong.

Again, people don't like it when you tell them the truth and the truth is something that they don't want to hear. @Seggy has the knowledge and experience to know that it's the truth.

 

[derg]

Because they aren't really leaders per say. They're people appointed to do stuff for us. When they start making decisions on what is best for me without really consulting me, its time to go.

Precisely.

At this current juncture in DALPA politics, if our representatives would dare crow themselves as "leaders" opposed to representatives, they would have that head off faster than one could scream 'damn you autocorrect' at the spelling of "Robespierre".