Eagle Management Comes Back to the Table Despite Threats

[bronco21016]

Where I'd like to see the regional industry? I'd like to not see it, to be honest. I'd like it to cease to exist, and all of those pilots be at mainline. But wish in one hand and.....

What I see as a more realistic outcome is that several regionals are going to go out of business, a whole lot of 50 seat feed is going to go away forever, and a few smaller regional airlines flying only 70+ seat airplanes are going to remain, probably with some greater pricing power.

If we want the regional industry to go up in smoke then doesn't it stand to reason that voting no and only accepting what we're worth is the quickest means to that end? If we keep taking crappy contracts we'll never be able to force these companies into bankruptcy and thus out of existence.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

If we want the regional industry to go up in smoke then doesn't it stand to reason that voting no and only accepting what we're worth is the quickest means to that end? If we keep taking crappy contracts we'll never be able to force these companies into bankruptcy and thus out of existence.

That's certainly true. But I don't believe that that's the outcome that most regional pilots want. Instead, they think they'll act tough and get management to cave. That's fantasy.

 

[bronco21016]

That's certainly true. But I don't believe that that's the outcome that most regional pilots want. Instead, they think they'll act tough and get management to cave. That's fantasy.

I guess my views are rather narrow. My co-workers share the common attitude of "eff this, if we're not out of here in a year we're done". Most people I work with would gladly see the place, and other regionals, burn to the ground.

 

[derg]

We need more of this and less bickering.

Well, you guys are major airlines and the "brand owners" aren't necessarily Shangri-La either.

Our pressures are "Well, if you costs get too high, they'll just outsource it to other SkyGlobal carriers"

So then we ask "Aren't most of our other SkyGlobal carriers making a lot more than we are with better benefits? If we must keep our overall cost of contract low, can we at least see how we compare to our SkyGlobal partners?"

"NOOOOOOO! That's proprietary! But here's a comparison to other US carriers, but we'll leave FedEx and UPS out of the mix, now why do you think you deserve substantially more than your cohorts at USAirways with a completely different route network? The company will never agree to restore wages, you need to see that 4% as a RAISE now, go fly."

We basically had to plead and beg with leadership to beg and plead with the negotiating committee to negotiate with the company in a lot of different ways. Over the years, lots of heads have rolled and I think we've purged most of that out of leadership positions.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

That's certainly true. But I don't believe that that's the outcome that most regional pilots want. Instead, they think they'll act tough and get management to cave. That's fantasy.

In your opinion, why are we not worth what we were in the 90s? Or 00s? You posted Pinnacle's pay rate for when you started and I threw it into an inflation calc and it looks as if 1st year pay at bankruptcy contract Endeavor is the same as when you started.

Why are we worth the same amount of money flying a CRJ900 as guys were worth in the 80s flying only small turboprop lift?

With this shift in pricing power, how do we get flying back to the mainline? Do you foresee a permanent caste of substandard wage pilots flying at regionals for 10-15 years before getting their shot at a major (or even upgrade)?

With the new rules, people have to start at a regional at 23, so that would mean the average potential career at a major is 27 years. That is a very small window with which to make "the big bucks", considering you will only spend 1/2 of your major career at top scale.

 

[derg]

That's certainly true. But I don't believe that that's the outcome that most regional pilots want. Instead, they think they'll act tough and get management to cave. That's fantasy.

If the company dissolves, the company dissolves.

If Eagle is truly on life support and only the pilots concessions can save the company, well, it's a conversation that American Eagle pilots have to have with themselves.

Remember the Terry Shiavo case in Florida? The husband said "Enough is Enough" but then all sorts of external political forces put their hands in a difficult personal decision and made things worse for everyone involved.

Eagle pilots understand the risk.

 

[jtrain609]

Did anybody read the GAO report? Regionals do half of the domestic departures per day, but only carry 22% of passengers.

Mainline carriers could eliminate half their regional feed and only take a 10% hit in capacity. Capacity, mind you, that they'd likely be happy to ditch anyway.

If you think they need us, you'd better think again. One a320 can replace three 50 seat RJ's, and suddenly replacing that 22% of seats at the regionals doesn't sound so challenging.


So if you want that, go get it. But nobody has management on the run.

 

[derg]

What's going to happen in the near term and the long term with the relationship between regional airlines and their major counterparts, in my opinion, is predetermined.

Everyone is replaceable, but that's also a bed we made with erosions in both domestic and international scope and codeshares.

 

[bronco21016]

So if you want that, go get it. But nobody has management on the run.

That's exactly what I want. I want 3 B717s flown by guys making $68+/hr flying to Kalamazoo instead of the 5-7 CRJs flown by guys with 7+ years experience making $37/hour.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

In your opinion, why are we not worth what we were in the 90s? Or 00s?

There's a difference between what you're worth and what you're able to negotiate in current market conditions.

Let's look at what the big difference is between when I started flying an RJ and today. I started at Pinnacle in 2002. The price of oil was $20/bbl, and Pinnacle had an air service agreement (ASA) with Northwest Airlines that was "cost-plus." That means that no matter how much prices went up, Northwest agreed to pay Pinnacle whatever it took to maintain a 10% profit margin. The only limitation was labor costs, for which they would only cover up to industry average. Now, what do things look like today? Oil prices today are at roughly $105/bbl. That is a 425% increase. Fuel costs make up about 40% of an airline's operating costs. Do the math.

Of course, that wouldn't be so much of a problem if the "cost-plus" agreement had remained in place. But it didn't. Sometime around 2006 the "cost-plus" ASA disappeared and was replaced with a straight FFD arrangement. Increases in cost were the responsibility of the regional partner, and the major partner had no burden to shoulder any of it. If a particular regional couldn't keep its costs in line (with labor being about the only variable cost), then major partner management could shop around the feed to someone who could.

With this shift in pricing power, how do we get flying back to the mainline? Do you foresee a permanent caste of substandard wage pilots flying at regionals for 10-15 years before getting their shot at a major (or even upgrade)?

I really see that as being up to the regional pilots. As I've said before, I believe that they'll either stand up and say "no," in which case a bunch of regionals will disappear and some pricing power will return, or they'll agree to the new substandard wages and things will continue largely unchanged. It's entirely up to the pilots to decide what is more advantageous to them.

With the new rules, people have to start at a regional at 23, so that would mean the average potential career at a major is 27 years. That is a very small window with which to make "the big bucks", considering you will only spend 1/2 of your major career at top scale.

Hence why I'm not recommending this career to anyone who isn't already in it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Eagle pilots understand the risk.

I think many of the statements here and elsewhere prove that that isn't the case.

 

[derg]

I think many of the statements here and elsewhere prove that that isn't the case.

In your opinion.

And this is the internet.

Carry on.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

In your opinion.

An opinion based on knowledge and experience. But as you point out, this is the internet, so that isn't valued. So yes, by all means, carry on.

 

[derg]

An opinion based on knowledge and experience. But as you point out, this is the internet, so that isn't valued. So yes, by all means, carry on.

Ok, I'll elaborate for you.

Firebird's out to lunch on the jingoistic nature of his posts, absolutely. But he doesn't represent the majority of Eagle pilots.

In the age of the Internet, there is a plethora of information available 24/7 and I presume if someone is able to get to work on time monday morning wearing the correct uniform, they've done at least the minimum amount of effort to educate themselves on the situation they face going forward.

Some people think they have fantastic leverage, I don't necessarily agree. But remember, you're also speaking to someone with knowledge and experience, my friend discount at your own peril.

What's important is education and information in order to make a very personal and important choice. It's their choice as American Eagle pilots. I'm not an American Eagle pilot, I can't tell them what to do, but I can provide a resource for them to communicate and throw in some perspective that I've seen through a strike at Skyway, and the wonderful "double dip" concession game during the bankruptcy at Delta.

Is it germane to the discussion? Maybe, maybe not, but it's their decision because they are the ones that must live with the consequences. We may, indirectly, but their choices will have a direct effect on their situation.

I presume they're adults and if that adult at American Eagle says "I've had enough" after the reams of information they've been given over the months and torrent of information online, well, that's his personal decision and I don't have to like it, I don't have to support it, but I do have to professionally respect it.

The bell curve of most eagle pilots probably aren't reflected by what we're reading in the forum. Who knows where they stand because they're probably too busy out working to gather round the fire and throw their opinions onto the forum.

Can I go get some bacon now or do you want me to continue with the Gettysburg Address?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Firebird's out to lunch on the jingoistic nature of his posts, absolutely. But he doesn't represent the majority of Eagle pilots.

Maybe, maybe not. The fact is that the people Firebird supports have taken over the MEC, though, so that's a strong indication that his mentality is prevailing.

In the age of the Internet, there is a plethora of information available 24/7 and I presume if someone is able to get to work on time monday morning wearing the correct uniform, they've done at least the minimum amount of effort to educate themselves on the situation they face going forward.

Yeah, sorry, but I disagree. Pilots have a tendency to think that they know everything, even when they have absolutely no experience in the subject, so they don't bother to get informed. It's a side effect of Type A.

Some people think they have fantastic leverage, I don't necessarily agree. But remember, you're also speaking to someone with knowledge and experience, my friend discount at your own peril.

You have a ton of knowledge and experience flying airplanes. You don't when it comes to bargaining and labor/management relations.

 

[derg]

If that's what helps you sleep at night, g'night.

But you're far, far out to lunch and doing more damage to the profession with this attitude than you realize.

However, each APA, DPA, Teamsters and USAPA bag tag certainly appreciates the marketing.

 

[Firebird2XC]

It's easy to see how my attitude could be perceived as 'jingoistic' but I think that's an oversimplified view of things.

Lately, at Eagle, we've had a slew of ultimatums thrown our way and nearly all of them requires concessions in the face of a 'swirling vortex of doom'. I've actually heard a senior company official use that term in years last- and he wasn't being humorous. That was his talking point. While no, I don't represent every Eagle pilot, I do see something in almost every discussion I have about the matter- the presence or lack of fear.

Those willing to challenge the company to provide solid numbers that justify their needs for concessions don't seem to be showing any fear. The company hasn't produced any numbers at all lately. Just threats and bluster. Meanwhile, those willing to take the company at their word seem more than a little afraid. That might just be my opinion, but the 'vote no' crowd very much seem to be leaning forward in the foxhole compared to the 'vote yes' crowd. That, and the 'vote yes' crowd has taken the company at their word and repeatedly had that rug pulled out from under them lately. Those supporting the company have been left with nothing else to stand on.

That said, there's still something that could undermine Eagle pilots. I've seen it stall or ruin efforts of pilots elsewhere. In 2007, pilots at Colgan Air believed there was no way the union drive could fail- we'd have ALPA on property shortly. I was standing with a member of the organizing committee, our celebratory beers already in hand, when we heard over the speaker of his phone that we had failed- by four votes. The best answer we could provide for why that happened is that pilots were apathetic- so individuals failed to act. Everybody believed it would be such a landslide they didn't even bother to find their ballot in the mail.

That's what I'm trying to avoid at Eagle. We're not even trying to ask for more- we just want to keep what we have that we already negotiated concessions for- in court, no less. Eagle pilots are fed up- and are standing up. So in support of that, I will speak long and loudly to make sure people don't succumb to apathy or misdirection. The company is trying to wait us out- that's what they want.

I'm fed up, and I'm not going to take it anymore- and a large number of Eagle pilots are willing to stand up because they feel that way too.

We're prepared to 'die with our boots on'. Not because we don't see the risk, but because we believe the risk is for something *really* worth it. And even then- it's a calculated risk.

No guts, no glory,

 

[derg]

Edit: "Hey JetBlue pilots! Join the ranks of ALPA! We'll have your backs right up until the point that some guys from national deem that you're asking for too much and we'll largely turn our backs on your when the going gets tough".

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

If that's what helps you sleep at night, g'night.

But you're far, far out to lunch and doing more damage to the profession with this attitude than you realize.

However, each APA, DPA, Teamsters and USAPA bag tag certainly appreciates the marketing.

There's that Type A personality rearing it's ugly head. Heaven forbid someone with no labor contract bargaining experience actually admit that he doesn't have that experience. No, he has to proclaim from the rooftops that he knows just as much as the people with the experience.

Whatever.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Edit: "Hey JetBlue pilots! Join the ranks of ALPA! We'll have your backs right up until the point that some guys from national deem that you're asking for too much and we'll largely turn our backs on your when the going gets tough".

Yeah, that's what we're doing.