Eagle Management Comes Back to the Table Despite Threats

[Cptnchia]

You have a ton of knowledge and experience flying airplanes. You don't when it comes to bargaining and labor/management relations.

While that may be true, unfortunately it's the condescending tone the ALPAites use to tell the line pilots this. Another side effect of type A unioners. And you wonder why the line has no respect for anyone or thing in Herndon.
Don't know about you, but I'm tired of the "Shut up and go color, we know more than you" being spewed from Virginia. Let's just overlook the fact that I worked for airline management during furlough, negotiating against ALPA. Yeah, I know the tricks they used.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

While that may be true, unfortunately it's the condescending tone the ALPAites use to tell the line pilots this.

The "tone" only comes out when pilots who have never negotiated for anything more than a car want to insist that they know better than the professional negotiators.

And if you negotiated against ALPA, that might be something you shouldn't be bragging about.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Well if we are what is wrong with our union today, what exactly does @ATN_Pilot do for it? When was the last LEC meeting you went to? Offered to volunteer? Recall an elected rep if you aren't happy with them?

I'm not the problem with the union. Nor is Todd. YOU are the union. Take real action if you aren't happy.

That's like saying "You don't like the direction this country is going? You should be president!" I'll gladly admit that I do absolutely nothing union related. My reasons? First I think its a lost cause because of a lot of the same reasons that Doug brought up. People who don't tow the line just simply aren't tolerated. I have neither the time, nor energy to deal with union politics. The system is broken...our MEC chair stepped down. His replacement...pulled from and voted on by the MEC. Hooray inbreeding!

While that may be the case at your property, is it at Eagle?

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how accurately their MEC is representing what they're hearing from the pilots that elected them. If I remember correctly, the vote to not send the TA to the pilot group for a vote was a pretty close one. That is generally what I'm seeing through talking to my friends at Eagle, people on the jumpseat, and people on the inter webs (which admittedly is an inaccurate way of polling opinion).

You could answer why Todd is so concerned about this if you knew what he did with the union.

Well, he hasn't told me. Sorry I'm not psychic.

With me, I know a few people who had to start over at regionals after theirs shut down or they left due to pay cuts. If their group accepted the cuts, they would have personally been in much better positions. You may be saying now that if your company goes under you will work at Home Depot. Great.

That's understandable, but I'm not voting for them. And again, if you look at my pilot group they don't tend to agree with you. Like you said earlier, we are the union. The union should be representing our interests...that simply isn't happening. Instead we have people like you telling us what we should be doing.

Also, two more questions. Do you want your union to fight for every penny they can get out of management (which I believe your TA was)? Or do you want them to sell you unrealistic promises of something that can't be delivered due to economic realities(you want more that is fine, but can your company afford it realistically)?

What I want is probably unlikely to be achieved. But that doesn't mean I'm not willing to try. In my perfect world there would be some semblance of pilot unity, and it should start with ALPA national. The regional model is currently unsustainable. The reason for this is because of the new model of how regionals are compensated by their mainline partners. The race to the bottom WILL continue until either people start saying no or planes start falling out of the sky in a Colganesque manner.

Every day I go to work I see the increased operational pressures caused by cost savings in an attempt to work within the constraints of the budget provided by our mainline partners. This is simply unsustainable. Taking concessions won't fix it. Either the mainline companies will have to start paying the regionals more or they're going to have to get rid of them and do the flying themselves. Those are my goals. They may be unrealistic...but that doesn't mean its not worth trying.

 

[Cptnchia]

And if you negotiated against ALPA, that might be something you shouldn't be bragging about.

Why not? I'm proud of the work I did, considering the ALPA side had unfettered access to what management was thinking. Nothing like having a mole who wore an ALPA pin. The funny thing was, everyone knew except my clueless boss.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Both of us have dedicated a rather large portion of our lives to helping pilots and this profession, both at our own carriers and at others. If you don't understand why we would have an interest, then perhaps it's just because you're too self-centered and can't understand how someone would care about someone else.

If the way two of you are responding to Charlie and others is "caring about others" you guys need help.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Instead we have people like you telling us what we should be doing.

No one has done any such thing. We've simply told you what the facts are about the current bargaining environment. You don't like the facts, so you lash out and claim that we're "telling you what to do."

 

[Screaming_Emu]

An opinion based on knowledge and experience. But as you point out, this is the internet, so that isn't valued. So yes, by all means, carry on.

That's fantastic. But I've flown with people who had years upon years of experience flying airplanes. And they were horrible at it.

 

[derg]

@Seggy

The problem with the idea that if you don't like something "get involved" is murky. And you know exactly what I'm talking about because you and another user were there when some things were said a few years ago when my name went up for some 'stuff'.

I've been bitching, complaining, screaming and attempting to volunteer for over a decade.

However, the power structure we had at DALPA wasn't "come join us as a symphony of voices will make us strong", it wasn't about dissenting opinions toward a common goal, they wanted more of a tightly-orchestrated monotone Gregorian chant where if you didn't act as a good little soldier, you were of no use and will be marginalized at all cost. And there were certainly a number of "executions" on a number of levels.

We're at the other end of that attitude where we have a drive for alternate representation at SouthernJets and DALPA leadership has been making wide, categorical change in part because everyone's absolutely fed up and tired of business as usual. Remember, many of the people running the DPA drive are people who were in elected positions that were sent to the guillotine during administration changes because they wouldn't fall into line.

You "nip it in the bud" not with some of the attitudes of "I know better than you" displayed in this thread and in many LEC meetings around "alpa.Byzantium", you nip it in the bud with engagement. If engagement is too hard, or maddening, it's probably time to sink back into the folds of the seniority list.

Personally, I know that if someone suggested we sit down and listen because we're only mere mortals, as if it was 2003 at DALPA, there would be a recall effort that afternoon in our current environment.

I am not a DPA person, don't get me wrong, but the threat is real and that fire is being fed by some of the same tactics used on the American Eagle pilots from those that claim to know what's best.

Last October someone at DALPA gave me a "shut up, I know better" at a PUB event, in light of what's going on with our pilot group, that person got sent back to the line and is no longer in his position.

We cannot afford that attitude anymore nor will our pilots in 2014 tolerate it.

Be careful. I beg you.

 

[Roger Roger]

I'm just really confused as to why the hard core union guys are saying that guys should just bend over and take concessions at the whim of manglement.

 

[derg]

I'm just really confused as to why the hard core union guys are saying that guys should just bend over and take concessions at the whim of manglement.

Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. Risk.

 

[zmiller4]

I'm just really confused as to why the hard core union guys are saying that guys should just bend over and take concessions at the whim of management.

Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt. Risk.

I don't know that I hear anyone saying that Eagle should just take concessions, just that they need to be realistic about the situation. From a probably ill-informed outsider's perspective, it sounds like the contrasting views are:

1) Eagle management is bluffing and holds no leverage and has no reason to go all Comair, or

2) They're willing and capable to shut the airline down over this.

1 may be true, but by calling management's bluff, they're certainly risking 2. I have no idea what the communications from their MEC has been, but to *not* acknowledge that risk and insist that pilots hold plenty of leverage is disingenuous (just going off posts I've seen here and on other forums). As @jtrain609 has pointed out, replacing the lift wouldn't be impossible, and they probably want to get rid of the 50 seaters anyway. If Eagle pilots really feel that they'd rather be job hunting than work under whatever was proposed, I respect that--as long as it's an educated decision.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

That's fantastic. But I've flown with people who had years upon years of experience flying airplanes. And they were horrible at it.

And yet, given the choice, would you get on their airplane, or the airplane of someone who had never touched the controls of an airplane before? Because that's really what we're talking about here.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I'm just really confused as to why the hard core union guys are saying that guys should just bend over and take concessions at the whim of manglement.

NO ONE HAS SAID ANY SUCH THING!

 

[Screaming_Emu]

And yet, given the choice, would you get on their airplane, or the airplane of someone who had never touched the controls of an airplane before? Because that's really what we're talking about here.

Neither.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Neither.

Ok.

 

[derg]

I don't know that I hear anyone saying that Eagle should just take concessions, just that they need to be realistic about the situation. From a probably ill-informed outsider's perspective, it sounds like the contrasting views are:

1) Eagle management is bluffing and holds no leverage and has no reason to go all Comair, or

2) They're willing and capable to shut the airline down over this.

1 may be true, but by calling management's bluff, they're certainly risking 2. I have no idea what the communications from their MEC has been, but to *not* acknowledge that risk and insist that pilots hold plenty of leverage is disingenuous (just going off posts I've seen here and on other forums). As @jtrain609 has pointed out, replacing the lift wouldn't be impossible, and they probably want to get rid of the 50 seaters anyway. If Eagle pilots really feel that they'd rather be job hunting than work under whatever was proposed, I respect that--as long as it's an educated decision.

I'm of the school of thought that you educate the pilots what choices they have and leave it there.

It doesn't matter how mad it makes you feel after you've sunk $100's of thousands of dollars in Flight Pay Loss, meetings, CF&A reports and legal fees.

Get the information out, answer the question, refrain from editorializing…

Step. Back.

Ah ah ah! It doesn't matter how any of us feel, this is a money game.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I'm of the school of thought that you educate the pilots what choices they have and leave it there.

Informing pilots of the consequences of one vote or another is part of the education effort.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Ok.

Seriously. You can teach someone with a good attitude to do pretty much anything. I'd rather have someone like Derg, with a level head and good communication skills in my corner any day of the week.

So my answer is neither.

Looking at my "do not fly" list you'll see a lot of old crusty guys with tons of experience who lack people skills. Looking at my "prefer to fly with list" you'll see a lot of people, both young and old, who may not have the experience. But they have a good head on their shoulders, value my input, communicate well, and have a healthy amount of humility. Those are the people I want in my corner.

 

[jtrain609]

The "tone" only comes out when pilots who have never negotiated for anything more than a car want to insist that they know better than the professional negotiators.

And if you negotiated against ALPA, that might be something you shouldn't be bragging about.

You mean like what you're doing? Because you're certainly not a professional negotiator. Watching somebody work, and then claiming to know what you're doing means that I can drive the Space Shuttle.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

You mean like what you're doing? Because you're certainly not a professional negotiator. Watching somebody work, and then claiming to know what you're doing means that I can drive the Space Shuttle.

In which case I would like everyone to know that I'm a porn star.