Eagle Management Comes Back to the Table Despite Threats

[Firebird2XC]

Despite management several times threatening that there would be no further communication or negotiation ("no second bite at the apple") regarding fleet renewal at American Eagle (legacy/Envoy), the Eagle ALPA MEC had confirmed that management is coming back to the table.

In an email sent last night, the MEC chairman said:

"As you are aware, we are in a very fluid situation as it relates to our current dialog with the company. Next week, we are meeting with company executives in Washington D.C. in an effort to secure a mutually-beneficial agreement to refleet our carrier.

In order to ensure that the MEC is able to receive timely, unfiltered information, we have decided to move the MEC meeting that was previously scheduled in Euless to Washington D.C. Moving the location of the meeting will enable us to have frank discussions within the MEC, while avoiding any delays in discussing the results of the company meeting.

We understood your concerns about the AIP. Your concerns regarding the uncertainty of the present situation are also understandable. We will continue to be transparent and communicate about our meeting with company executives as soon as possible. We understand your desire to know what the future holds for us and the MEC will be working diligently to quickly provide you with solutions.

The goals of the company and of ALPA are the same; we both desire a strong, growing future for American Eagle Airlines. It is in the best interests of all employees, management, investors and our customers. We will continue to look for solutions that lead to a strong future for the company, that also recognize our value to AAG and our position in the industry. We are confident that as long as AAG and EGL ALPA work together, we can achieve these goals.

Stay tuned as we move forward and stay united.

Bill Sprague

MEC Chairman"

He went on to speak on a few other issues but I will leave them to others.

This email shows that the company has in fact either been uncertain or untruthful about their approach to how they will place new aircraft (or not) with American Eagle.

Recently, a letter written by an Eagle captain to a senior company official highlighted the lack of truth and candor in management's negotiating process. In 2012 during the bankruptcy process, company officials repeatedly told Eagle pilots that the eight year concessionary contract they demanded (in lieu of outright abrogation) was necessary to secure newer, larger jets for the future. The contract was ratified by Eagle pilots. No less than ten days after AAG exited bankruptcy, the company came back demanding concessions, citing the need for cost savings and couching the proposal in a threat- without concessions, there would be no new airplanes and Eagle would be shut down.

American Eagle management has repeatedly been demonstrated to be untrustworthy, untruthful, and unreliable in the negotiation process.

I am hopeful that as American Eagle pilots stand up against these bullying, union-busting tactics, pilots at Eagle and elsewhere can see these heavy-handed and dishonest negotiating tactics for what they really are.

Don't be fooled- market trends and current times say we're worth more than what they so grudgingly give us. Stand your ground, don't accept concessions for no reason.

EAGLE STRONG!

 

[pete2800]

It would be funny if the MEC chose to not negotiate. How much longer until your contract is amendable?

 

[Firebird2XC]

It would be funny if the MEC chose to not negotiate. How much longer until your contract is amendable?

Eh- it's a got a four year amendable date. Not sure when the clock started on that exactly.

It would indeed be funny if the MEC chose to counter-demand. We've had some seats change recently. I'm in favor of at least hearing what the company has to offer. If it's not good enough, we can just vote it down again. And again, if necessary.

A captain I just flew with had me laughing- he kept quoting Braveheart.

"You tell the king- these are our demands."

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I'm curious. What are you going to say if management comes to the table and says that AAG has had enough of the pilots' BS, and they're now demanding even further cuts? What if they show up to the table with a firm wind-down schedule of the EGL fleet, telling you to take even worse concessions if you want to keep your jobs at all?

Look, I certainly hope your foolish bravado works out like you hope. I just find it highly unlikely. And I'm wondering how the EGL pilots will react when they realize that the guys like you were wrong and led them down a path of ruin.

 

[Seggy]

I'm curious. What are you going to say if management comes to the table and says that AAG has had enough of the pilots' BS, and they're now demanding even further cuts? What if they show up to the table with a firm wind-down schedule of the EGL fleet, telling you to take even worse concessions if you want to keep your jobs at all?

Or the real RAH contract is in the hands of Eagle management and they are asking for that.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Or the real RAH contract is in the hands of Eagle management and they are asking for that.

What, you mean the union-proposed rates that Charlie posted aren't the real RAH contract?

 

[Firebird2XC]

I'm curious. What are you going to say if management comes to the table and says that AAG has had enough of the pilots' BS, and they're now demanding even further cuts? What if they show up to the table with a firm wind-down schedule of the EGL fleet, telling you to take even worse concessions if you want to keep your jobs at all?

Look, I certainly hope your foolish bravado works out like you hope. I just find it highly unlikely. And I'm wondering how the EGL pilots will react when they realize that the guys like you were wrong and led them down a path of ruin.

They don't actually have any grounds to make demands- we're not in actual contract negotiations. They're trying to force the issue by means of threatening A) shutdown or B) no fleet renewal. They've recanted on the first point and have yet to find elsewhere to place the jets.

You can call my statement 'foolish bravado', but in reality I'm fighting for my career and that of my peers as well. As someone who's tucking tail and getting out of the industry, I'm not sure why you have anything further to say about it all.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

They don't actually have any grounds to make demands- we're not in actual contract negotiations.

You're always in negotiations. Let's see how you think their grounds to make demands are when you're on the street.

They're trying to force the issue by means of threatening A) shutdown or B) no fleet renewal. They've recanted on the first point and have yet to find elsewhere to place the jets.

I dispute your assertion that they've recanted, and you have no knowledge of whether they've found a place to put the jets. This is all supposition on your part.

As someone who's tucking tail and getting out of the industry, I'm not sure why you have anything further to say about it all.

You're right. The voice of experience will now shut up and let the inexperienced take over. Carry on.

 

[BobDDuck]

And I'm wondering how the EGL pilots will react when they realize that the guys like you were wrong and led them down a path of ruin.

Recent history would show they will attempt to decertify ALPA.

 

[Tld]

"There will be no second bite at the apple pilots!.....but we do have this orange...."

In reality, sounds like they're still going to try to serve poop sandwich...but that's just me. Imma go press some buttons now.

 

[Firebird2XC]

"There will be no second bite at the apple pilots!.....but we do have this orange...."

In reality, sounds like they're still going to try to serve poop sandwich...but that's just me. Imma go press some buttons now.

The company is always expected to shovel crap at us.

The point of this thread is to reiterate that their threats are toothless and they should not be taken seriously when they demand something for no apparent reason.

 

[mikecweb]

YES! Another one.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

"I'm here for the ALPA circle jerk."

@ATN_Pilot @Seggy

I understand that you guys have been/are involved in union leadership. I understand that at least one of you guys was involved in turning a crappy non unionized regional airline into a slightly less crappy ALPA carrier. I firmly believe that ALPA is head and shoulders over any other representation currently available. But in my opinion you two are exactly what is wrong with our union today. Just as you look at our elected representatives in congress nowadays, union politics seem to be exactly the same. Instead of representing the pilots, the union becomes ALPA for ALPAs sake. Instead of representing the will of the pilots, they attempt to dictate to the pilot group instead of listening.

The ASA/XJT MEC just recently had that demonstrated to them. Our union was so convinced that the TA was going to pass, the night before they sent out an email saying "hey guys, we have come to an agreement on how/when the new contract will be implemented!"

Right now two pilot groups are trying to speak up. We are well aware of the potential consequences, but the number of no votes on the XJT side certainly shows that even a large percentage of the lifers are willing to take a risk. We've gotten to the point where we have decided that for many of us, enough is enough.

I'm hardly Charlie's biggest fan. But if you can make it through the multi page posts, you gotta admit that the guy's posts are at least reasonably well thought out and as fact/rumor based as you could expect in the current situation. They may be a little on the side of searching for the message that he wants to hear, but he certainly doesn't deserve to be teased and chided by people who have/currently hold "leadership" positions in our union, yet really have zero risk in the current situation.

I really expect better from you two, even if it sometimes means having to take the high road in response to a personal jab. I really fail to understand the level of interest you two seem to have in negotiations at a regional level seeing as it doesn't affect either of you. You seem to display a rather "TMZ" style interest in the subject without giving a whole lot of guidance other than "OMG, you guys are screwed!"

 

[Seggy]

"I'm here for the ALPA circle jerk."

@ATN_Pilot @Seggy

I understand that you guys have been/are involved in union leadership. I understand that at least one of you guys was involved in turning a crappy non unionized regional airline into a slightly less crappy ALPA carrier. I firmly believe that ALPA is head and shoulders over any other representation currently available. But in my opinion you two are exactly what is wrong with our union today.

Well if we are what is wrong with our union today, what exactly does @ATN_Pilot do for it? When was the last LEC meeting you went to? Offered to volunteer? Recall an elected rep if you aren't happy with them?

I'm not the problem with the union. Nor is Todd. YOU are the union. Take real action if you aren't happy.

Right now two pilot groups are trying to speak up. We are well aware of the potential consequences, but the number of no votes on the XJT side certainly shows that even a large percentage of the lifers are willing to take a risk. We've gotten to the point where we have decided that for many of us, enough is enough.

While that may be the case at your property, is it at Eagle?

I really expect better from you two, even if it sometimes means having to take the high road in response to a personal jab. I really fail to understand the level of interest you two seem to have in negotiations at a regional level seeing as it doesn't affect either of you. You seem to display a rather "TMZ" style interest in the subject without giving a whole lot of guidance other than "OMG, you guys are screwed!"

You could answer why Todd is so concerned about this if you knew what he did with the union.

With me, I know a few people who had to start over at regionals after theirs shut down or they left due to pay cuts. If their group accepted the cuts, they would have personally been in much better positions. You may be saying now that if your company goes under you will work at Home Depot. Great.

That is what the other folks I know were saying as well. Now they are back at regionals flying the same routes they used to fly for much less.

Also, two more questions. Do you want your union to fight for every penny they can get out of management (which I believe your TA was)? Or do you want them to sell you unrealistic promises of something that can't be delivered due to economic realities(you want more that is fine, but can your company afford it realistically)?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Right now two pilot groups are trying to speak up. We are well aware of the potential consequences

You may be, but it is clear by reading the threads over on APC, and some of the threads here, that a whole lot of the pilots aren't. Most of the threads demonstrate nothing but machismo and arrogance, with this insane idea that they're going to "teach management a lesson." Most actually believe that management is bluffing. Most think that their jobs aren't at risk. I could go on, but the point is that while you may understand the potential consequences, it seems clear that most of the pilots don't.

I'm hardly Charlie's biggest fan. But if you can make it through the multi page posts, you gotta admit that the guy's posts are at least reasonably well thought out

No, I certainly do NOT have to admit that. His posts demonstrate a complete detachment from reality, in fact. It scares me that people may actually be listening to him.

I really fail to understand the level of interest you two seem to have in negotiations at a regional level seeing as it doesn't affect either of you.

Both of us have dedicated a rather large portion of our lives to helping pilots and this profession, both at our own carriers and at others. If you don't understand why we would have an interest, then perhaps it's just because you're too self-centered and can't understand how someone would care about someone else.

 

[cstewart6]

@ATN_Pilot @Seggy

I'm curious to hear where you'd like to see the regional industry in 5 and 10 years. If everyone were to vote yes on contracts that get "every penny they can get out of management", and nothing more, what do see as the long term result? I imagine this scenario to play out as another round of pay cuts for everyone, followed by more regionals underbidding each other, followed by more demands for pay cuts since we're too expensive again, followed by ALPA guys saying we need to take them to save our jobs.

I'm still new to this game, but I've seen and heard what I would call a great deal of unity among regional pilots across many carriers in terms of what they want, and it is definitely not represented by the contracts proposed lately.

 

[durind]

@ATN_Pilot @Seggy

I'm curious to hear where you'd like to see the regional industry in 5 and 10 years. If everyone were to vote yes on contracts that get "every penny they can get out of management", and nothing more, what do see as the long term result? I imagine this scenario to play out as another round of pay cuts for everyone, followed by more regionals underbidding each other, followed by more demands for pay cuts since we're too expensive again, followed by ALPA guys saying we need to take them to save our jobs.

I'm still new to this game, but I've seen and heard what I would call a great deal of unity among regional pilots across many carriers in terms of what they want, and it is definitely not represented by the contracts proposed lately.

I too, have been reading and following a lot of these threads, and I'm not sure if I missed it somewhere along the road, and I am not currently at a regional, but assuming pilots don't have any bargaining power against management, is there no way for regional pilots to make their lives any better?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

@ATN_Pilot @Seggy

I'm curious to hear where you'd like to see the regional industry in 5 and 10 years.

Where I'd like to see the regional industry? I'd like to not see it, to be honest. I'd like it to cease to exist, and all of those pilots be at mainline. But wish in one hand and.....

What I see as a more realistic outcome is that several regionals are going to go out of business, a whole lot of 50 seat feed is going to go away forever, and a few smaller regional airlines flying only 70+ seat airplanes are going to remain, probably with some greater pricing power.

followed by ALPA guys saying we need to take them to save our jobs.

I want to reiterate for the hundredth time, that is not what we're telling you. What we're telling you is that you need to make the decision for yourself about what is good enough for you, but you need to make that decision through the prism of reality instead of through Charlie's prism of fake leverage.

 

[derg]

We're in the middle of a potential coup at SouthernJets ALPA because leadership stopped listening to the will of the average pilot and took more of a "Stalinesque" perspective. Yes, the company was still the adversary, but people who did not walk lock-step with the leadership from above were also seen as "enemies amongst us" and a lot of things went down over the last decade.

Corrections are being made and things have gotten better with a lot of leadership changes and the only reason there's not more traction with the coup is a number of gaffes the revolutionaries have made. But they're at the gate and ultimately we're changing the way we do business at SouthernJets ALPA or we will have different representation.

You don't want to go down that road. Eagle will if they don't think they're getting the adequate level of support from national.

Sorry, but Lee Moak is a relic of ALPA of a bygone era. They need leadership, not speeches and water-carrying for A4A.

I'm not going to be bullied into submission so everyone save the effort for drunken Jenga.

 

[roundout]

We're in the middle of a potential coup at SouthernJets ALPA because leadership stopped listening to the will of the average pilot and took more of a "Stalinesque" perspective. Yes, the company was still the adversary, but people who did not walk lock-step with the leadership from above were also seen as "enemies amongst us" and a lot of things went down over the last decade.

Corrections are being made and things have gotten better with a lot of leadership changes and the only reason there's not more traction with the coup is a number of gaffes the revolutionaries have made. But they're at the gate and ultimately we're changing the way we do business at SouthernJets ALPA or we will have different representation.

You don't want to go down that road. Eagle will if they don't think they're getting the adequate level of support from national.

Sorry, but Lee Moak is a relic of ALPA of a bygone era. They need leadership, not speeches and water-carrying for A4A.

I'm not going to be bullied into submission so everyone save the effort for drunken Jenga.

We need more of this and less bickering.