Doh! Virgin’s airline drops Chicago plans

[derg]

I'm not a fan of raw, non-salsa onions either. That crap's nasty!

Saying that V-America doesn't have Branson's scent all over it is like saying "Coke" you purchase in the Ukraine is unlike the "Coke" corporation in Atlanta Georgia.

 

[ppragman]

I'm not a fan of raw, non-salsa onions either. That crap's nasty!

Saying that V-America doesn't have Branson's scent all over it is like saying "Coke" you purchase in the Ukraine is unlike the "Coke" corporation in Atlanta Georgia.

Well, the coke I purchased in Ukraine did taste quite unlike the coke I purchased in Seattle two days prior, but that was probably because of the powerful odor of cigarette smoke emanating from the kiosk, .

I do agree that Branson has played a major role in the formation and financing of the company, there's no doubting that, he's the "rebel billionaire," who owns the rest of the virgin name so its understandable. I don't really think its helpful to US airlines if he succeeds, however, I do think that wishing him ill will is bad juju, and doesn't really solve the problem. We need to do things like providing a public service announcement to the country (maybe payed for by alpa or something) about why Virgin is bad for the American Aviation industry. Blaming the crews for taking a job that seems beneficial for them is targetting the wrong people for the axe. Targeting the passengers riding around on jets that generate revenue (I'll be it, only 25%) for foreign investors is where my beef lies, if you're in the states, fly American companies, its your patriotic duty D). But that's just me. I try to fly only on Boeing or MD airframes, and do my damndest to avoid the airbus, and only fly things that come from north America (yeah, I'll ride in the Beaver and the CRJ if I have to).

On a personal note, what I see at Virgin is "jetBlue with bad teeth." Sure its got cool advertising, and a catchy name, but at its heart its still a british company.

 

[zmiller4]

"I hope the merit-based system of upgrades works wonders for ya! Can't wait to see it at my own airline!" ?

Sorry to bring things back to politics, but looking at McCain and Obama's statements on cabotage to ALPA in the context of what Virgin America is doing *really* highlights the importance of that election.

 

[v1valarob]

Initial funding for Virgin America totals $177.3 million, 49% directly or indirectly from Branson in the form of loans or investment. It's the most ever for an airline start-up. By contrast, JetBlue, the successful New York discounter that started in 2000, began with $135 million.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2006-01-18-virgin-america-usat_x.htm

When 49% of your start up is more than 100% of a real start-up airline, your airline is not really a "start up."

U.S. and British investors behind Virgin America, the start-up U.S. carrier conceived by Sir Richard Branson, say they can weather the current turbulence slamming airlines and plan to soon inject about $100 million of additional capital into the company

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120796297694709721.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Yea, this is not your everyday skybus jetblue start up.

 

[kellwolf]

When 49% of your start up is more than 100% of a real start-up airline, your airline is not really a "start up."

Yep, and it woulda been 100% if it weren't for cabotage laws. Heck, if Branson could bring over cheap pilots from India, he would. But, ya know. Best wishes for potentially destroying my career expectations and all that...

 

[derg]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120796297694709721.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Yea, this is not your everyday skybus jetblue start up.

Branson can lay siege to the US airline business by running Virgin at a loss with the laundered profits from his other airlines and there's not a whole heck of a lot we can do about it either.

Camel's nose.... Tent... Under...

 

[ppragman]

Yep, and it woulda been 100% if it weren't for cabotage laws. Heck, if Branson could bring over cheap pilots from India, he would. But, ya know. Best wishes for potentially destroying my career expectations and all that...

Make no mistake, they all would, they just can't get away with it yet. You think Deltawest, Alaska, American, etc. want to pay pilots? Hell no. They'd all outsource us if they could, not just branson. He's not really anyworse than any other CEO trying to hyper-inflate stock value and get something for nothing.

 

[Nick]

Forgot one thing

He's not really anyworse than any other CEO trying to hyper-inflate stock value and get something for nothing.

Not quite.

He has something extra that they don't.

Ugliness.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Re: Forgot one thing

Daaang, he is one ugly sonofagun.

 

[Velocipede]

ehh, bad karma, to wish them anything but the best

You just don't get it, do you?

I think we can all agree that nobody wants more out of work pilots on the streets, its already hard enough to find a job.

Sorry, but I can't agree. Those pukes are defining what pilots will work for...$95 an hour. Merit promotion. Upgrades returning to 1st year pay. In short, EVERYTHING ALPA was formed to fight in the 1920's.

If you go to work for an outfit like that, you are personally dragging this profession down by defining what pilots will work for. And he's got plenty of applicants.

Personally, I want to see EVERY ONE of those black suited biatches out on the street.

If there was little to no equity involved, well then Velocipede, have at 'em. But as ppragman suggests, it is probably better to wish them motivation to create higher pay and better working conditions than punishment in a fiery hell.

The only equity they got was street Capt. status or a promise for an early upgrade. Meanwhile they won't even come close to industry narrow body pay rates for another 5 years and its STILL substandard.

Believe me, its much better to wish them eternal damnation. The only thing that seperates them from scabs is that they haven't flown struck work...yet.

 

[ppragman]

You just don't get it, do you?



Sorry, but I can't agree. Those pukes are defining what pilots will work for...$95 an hour. Merit promotion. Upgrades returning to 1st year pay. In short, EVERYTHING ALPA was formed to fight in the 1920's.

If you go to work for an outfit like that, you are personally dragging this profession down by defining what pilots will work for. And he's got plenty of applicants.

Personally, I want to see EVERY ONE of those black suited biatches out on the street.



The only equity they got was street Capt. status or a promise for an early upgrade. Meanwhile they won't even come close to industry narrow body pay rates for another 5 years and its STILL substandard.

Believe me, its much better to wish them eternal damnation. The only thing that seperates them from scabs is that they haven't flown struck work...yet.

Well, there is where we do agree. Their uniforms do suck.

 

[Nick]

Well, there is where we do agree. Their uniforms do suck.

I read somewhere recently that the shirt changed to a more traditional pilot shirt. I'm not sure what that means and I have not seen it yet though.

 

[ppragman]

You just don't get it, do you?



Sorry, but I can't agree. Those pukes are defining what pilots will work for...$95 an hour. Merit promotion. Upgrades returning to 1st year pay. In short, EVERYTHING ALPA was formed to fight in the 1920's.

If you go to work for an outfit like that, you are personally dragging this profession down by defining what pilots will work for. And he's got plenty of applicants.

Personally, I want to see EVERY ONE of those black suited biatches out on the street.



The only equity they got was street Capt. status or a promise for an early upgrade. Meanwhile they won't even come close to industry narrow body pay rates for another 5 years and its STILL substandard.

Believe me, its much better to wish them eternal damnation. The only thing that seperates them from scabs is that they haven't flown struck work...yet.

Here's evergreen's pay scale and they're ALPA, and according to APC, the most junior captain was hired in 2005, so he's getting paid a wopping $82/hr. Compare that to Virgin's pay at first year captain status of $95/hr and it doesn't sound that bad. That doesn't mean I'm going to run off and fly for virgin (although if Virgin Galactic offered me a job, I'd have to take it), nor should anyone else, however, just because their ALPA doesn't mean the pay rocks. The only reason to choose a union company over a non-union company is the benefits you get in protection from the company all else being equal. Granted, when compared to other airlines, Virgin's pay is about $10/hr below standard at least.

 

[derg]

My word, I get paid more than that, flying FO taking a nap and a meal and little responsibility.

 

[Nick]

Here's evergreen's pay scale and they're ALPA, and according to APC, the most junior captain was hired in 2005, so he's getting paid a wopping $82/hr. Compare that to Virgin's pay at first year captain status of $95/hr and it doesn't sound that bad. That doesn't mean I'm going to run off and fly for virgin (although if Virgin Galactic offered me a job, I'd have to take it), nor should anyone else, however, just because their ALPA doesn't mean the pay rocks. The only reason to choose a union company over a non-union company is the benefits you get in protection from the company all else being equal. Granted, when compared to other airlines, Virgin's pay is about $10/hr below standard at least.

1) At least Evergreen pilots can negotiate a raise and have work rules to go with their low pay in the meantime.

2) Virgin's pay is way more than $10 below standard. It's more like $50-100 an hour below standard in each seat and that is comparing it to other airline's rates that have already taken huge paycuts.

 

[Velocipede]

1) At least Evergreen pilots can negotiate a raise and have work rules to go with their low pay in the meantime.

2) Virgin's pay is way more than $10 below standard. It's more like $50-100 an hour below standard in each seat and that is comparing it to other airline's rates that have already taken huge paycuts.

EXACTLY.

 

[Cactus_Cutter]

Yeah, but working as a pilot with a company with a cool name like “Virgin America” you won’t need the high salary. You can get chicks to buy you everything from drinks to shag apartments to cars.

Ops, I forgot your mommy doesn’t count.

 

[ppragman]

Yeah, but working as a pilot with a company with a cool name like “Virgin America” you won’t need the high salary. You can get chicks to buy you everything from drinks to shag apartments to cars.

Ops, I forgot your mommy doesn’t count.

I don't want to work for anyplace that touts virginity. Harlot Air would be a sure fire bet for me!

 

[kellwolf]

Here's my beef with VA: merit based upgrade. Yeah, sure, you've been there 2-3 years, but Jack over there managed to save the company a couple thousand dollars last year by not calling in sick as much/picking up open time. Sorry, but we're giving him your slot. Better luck next time. Jack then goes on to save the company more money by not diverting at times when maybe he should or some other questionably motivated decisions. Meanwhile, someone who does what is required of him but doesn't go the extra mile or "take one for the team" gets passed over year after year. Merit based upgrade does NOT belong in a safety oriented career. Although, by PCL128's definition, it's not a career since they only have a 401k.

Plus, when you upgrade, you start at the BOTTOM of the CA pay scale. So, a comparable carrier (let's say jetBlue since they fly nearly the same type and are also non-union for now), that "most junior CA" at VA hired in 2007 would be making $113/hr instead of $95.

 

[Velocipede]

That's what you get with a non-union job. No way to change the work rules or the wages.

Love it or leave it, Baby.