Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

Toobdrvr said:
OP:

Read Derg’s and MikeD’s long posts over, and over again, until it clicks. Sooo much knowledge. Everything I wanted to say, but too busy/lazy to say it.

Hell, even CC dropped some wisdom. Who’d a thunk?

I know you said “I don’t want Tough Love”, but where many of us are sitting, that’s EXACTLY what you need.

You may not know this, but you and I have been acquainted for nearly 10 yrs now. We’ve even met a couple of times (I keep a pretty low pro). I’ve been following your progression, professional and otherwise. You’ve had a rough path. Some by circumstance, some by choice. The obstacles in front of us aren’t important, it’s how we choose to deal with them.

The only person you’d find on this site condoning your decision to quit the industry is, thankfully, long gone…

Stay in it and find a way to succeed, or ring the bell. Your call. I (and I think everyone else here) hope you hang in. We’re all cheering for you, and apparently willing to help any way we can.

AND COME TO PALM SPRINGS!!! WE HAVE CANDY!!!🤣
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Preach, brother, PREACH!

Another thing I advocate is “success circles’. Find other people that are facing challenges similar or dissimilar, but are focused on getting ahead.

I have two people in another airline’s indoc class. One is from Asia, the other is from Europe and they feel out of their element because, individually, they’ve said that “it’s like all Americans know one another and I’m just sitting here in the corner”.

“Well, A, meet B, B meet A.” as they had no idea I was their common friend. There’s a success circle, outsiders no more.

If you’re having career challenges and you haven’t surrounded yourself with people who have YOUR professional best interests in mind, you’re not trying hard enough.
 
Another data point for OP. I took 8 years to get a 4 year degree, starting in community college and totally unsure if I’d make it. (I started on the professional pilot track and course corrected to engineering during the 2008 recession.) I was pretty cynical about the “system” and academia being a box-checking exercise that was going to put me into a lot of debt with questionable return on investment, but I eventually graduated with an aerospace engineering degree about 5 years older than my peers. The ROI was absolutely worth it (caveat being it was an STEM degree and unfortunately society doesn’t weigh all degrees equally even though they cost the same) and opened up access to a career that I would have had a 0% chance of obtaining had I not “checked the box.”

I ended up not becoming a 121 pilot but even I know Skywest is not a “career airline” and was never meant to be. You want to be a pilot at a legacy? Hold your nose and “cooperate and graduate.” Start working towards an online degree TODAY or if you have no downtime take an LOA and start going to classes.

You want to abstain from the academic system because of your principles? That’s your prerogative, but I recommend finding another job that makes enough money to support your lifestyle and that you find fulfilling and spend your time doing that. You have choices and get to steer the course of your own life. Nobody is going to take pity on you and you’re not the victim in this story.

I’ve kept up with 121 and had I stayed the course I might be a SouthernJets wide body FO or something making a crap ton more money than I currently do, but I would have missed out on two “dream jobs” I never thought I’d have a shot working at and a career where I get to use my brain and creativity in a different way than I do when I go flying (though I enjoy both in their own unique ways). Don’t shed a tear for me that I missed the boat on the “pilot shortage” and I won’t shed a tear for you that you don’t like school or interviewing. :)
 
Toobdrvr said:
Not to be “thread police” or anything, but just this once, can we keep this about the OP?
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Seriously. This isn’t advice at this point, it’s one person who seems to be perpetually miserable derailing this thread and offering nothing constructive. If anything, just actively harming things and burying words from people who are actually trying to help.
 
ppragman said:
again, this is learned behavior. not to • talk, we all do it, but perpetual misery is a skill not a condition.
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That’s one thing I’ve noticed since moving to the left seat. My attitude is contagious. If I come out of the elevator using the f bomb like a comma, everyone else is going to start bitching and moaning too. But even on days where I have to fake it a little, if I show up happy to be there, it’s generally a much more pleasant work environment.
 
not to derail the thread too much, but I think this book is relevant:

Man's Search for Meaning - Wikipedia

The book changed my life and many aspects of how I see the world. It's not the only book that changed my life, but it's an important read if you're going through tough times and questioning the meaning of what you're doing or are disillusioned with life.

Screaming_Emu said:
That’s one thing I’ve noticed since moving to the left seat. My attitude is contagious. If I come out of the elevator using the f bomb like a comma, everyone else is going to start bitching and moaning too. But even on days where I have to fake it a little, if I show up happy to be there, it’s generally a much more pleasant work environment.
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I mean, I use the f word as though it was going out of style and I still had a lot in stock. But you can positively swear a lot, and it's fun, but you are right. Attitude is contagious. "Living the dream" can put off a lot of bad vibes and it's totally fine, "I'm fan-•-tastic" with an outrageous smile can warm even the coldest of hearts. Even if you are being sarcastic. Fake-it-til-you-make-it is legit.
 
SteveC said:
I’ve been saying for years, happiness is internal.

People don’t realize how much control they have, and allow outside stuff to run them.
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I like this idea, but I’m not sure it’s 100% accurate. There are some absolutely fantastic human beings who can find the bright side of any situation, but they are almost literally saints. For the rest of us mere mortals, you usually have to be a pretty good way through fulfilling the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs before it becomes much easier to find happiness.

I wasn’t unhappy when I was slugging it out at at the regionals. Trying to live like an adult while topping out at $43k after 8 years had its share of complications. Life could have been a while lot better, but until my IAD base closed and I had to start commuting, I’d put myself in the “content but very stressed” category.

Now? Life is good. My stubbornness to not give up when things were hard has finally paid off and allowed much of the day to day stresses that many people in this world experience fall to the background. As great as things are, I’ll say that knowing what it’s like to spread one grocery purchase across multiple credit cards or watching a YouTube video to fix my plumbing because I couldn’t afford to hire a professional makes my current situation so much sweeter.

Now the task is to try to live in the moment and appreciate things because we never know when things will take a turn for the worst.
 
ppragman said:
I mean, there's a threshold, to it. It's really hard to be "happy" on minimum wage and working 60hrs a week. But, yeah, for the most part it's mostly internal after a certain point, and indeed you can even train yourself to be happier more often. Our brains are plastic and you do have some agency in changing how you feel about things (Viktor Frankl intensifies). To this people say, "oh you don't know what I'm going through, I couldn't possibly be happy in these conditions, you're just victim blaming, you just have it so easy" and maybe that's true, I definitely have it easier than others and I'm very fortunate, so maybe I cannot possibly understand.

But... on the flip side, I had multiple jobs in aviation where we legitimately ignored FARs as a company policy, I worked 50 hours + a week, and while I was home at night, I worked far more than many of of the malcontents I've seen complaining, I took a 50% paycut to get turbine time and moved 2700NM to "get ahead." It sucked, and there were times when I was absolutely miserable, and I complained too. I lost relationships, my sleep schedule, and it was bad for my health. There were times when it was goddamn terrible to fly for a living.

But then, suddenly, I couldn't do it anymore, and a lot of things were put in perspective, and I missed it. I should (arguably) be very miserable. I'm some sort of blind pelican now, and there's nothing sadder than a flightless bird. I can't see as well as I think I should be able to, I'm giving blood once a month to make sure I don't develop some horrific cancer, and there are a plethora of inconveniences and senses of myself that I've lost that should render me a quivering ball of sadness.

I have my moments.

But, also, I spent a significant amount of my time after I got sick thinking, "ok, if this is going to be my life I'm going to enjoy it" - not because it was good, but in defiance of the same uncaring and callous universe that put me here in the first place. Having fun and being happy are acts of defiance.
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What the F did I do to you?

🙃
 
Toobdrvr said:
OP:

Read Derg’s and MikeD’s long posts over, and over again, until it clicks. Sooo much knowledge. Everything I wanted to say, but too busy/lazy to say it.

Hell, even CC dropped some wisdom. Who’d a thunk?

I know you said “I don’t want Tough Love”, but where many of us are sitting, that’s EXACTLY what you need.

You may not know this, but you and I have been acquainted for nearly 10 yrs now. We’ve even met a couple of times (I keep a pretty low pro). I’ve been following your progression, professional and otherwise. You’ve had a rough path. Some by circumstance, some by choice. The obstacles in front of us aren’t important, it’s how we choose to deal with them.

The only person you’d find on this site condoning your decision to quit the industry is, thankfully, long gone…

Stay in it and find a way to succeed, or ring the bell. Your call. I (and I think everyone else here) hope you hang in. We’re all cheering for you, and apparently willing to help any way we can.

AND COME TO PALM SPRINGS!!! WE HAVE CANDY!!!🤣
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So much this.

I’m happy that the barrier to entry into the upper levels of this industry have crumbled a little. But those who have entered recently and haven’t encountered many headwinds are missing out on the feeling of when you finally make it after all the struggle. I still “enjoy” a high level of imposters syndrome in my life because I don’t feel like I deserve to be where I am, but damned if there is one feeling I wish I could bottle up and apply as needed later on was when I called my wife to tell her that I had successfully completed my checkride to be a 747 captain. Previous checkride success usually involved lots of beer to celebrate, but after this one I ordered some food in, got a bottle of wine, and sat in my hotel room and reflected on how great it felt to make that phone call.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
So much this.

I’m happy that the barrier to entry into the upper levels of this industry have crumbled a little. But those who have entered recently and haven’t encountered many headwinds are missing out on the feeling of when you finally make it after all the struggle. I still “enjoy” a high level of imposters syndrome in my life because I don’t feel like I deserve to be where I am, but damned if there is one feeling I wish I could bottle up and apply as needed later on was when I called my wife to tell her that I had successfully completed my checkride to be a 747 captain. Previous checkride success usually involved lots of beer to celebrate, but after this one I ordered some food in, got a bottle of wine, and sat in my hotel room and reflected on how great it felt to make that phone call.
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Long ago on here I did the math, only something like 1/5 guys end up making it to a "legacy" carrier or whatever. That number has probably changed since roughly 2012 when I did the math (and it's probably better than 1/5), but yeah:
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so, do you want to be a "big fish in a small pond" or a "small fish in a big pond."

For me, it always seemed to be better to look for opportunities that were better suited to the lifestyle and adventures I wanted. To OP, she can be doing literally everything right and still end up never making it to a Major, maybe she should start triangulating alternative strategies if the advice like getting a degree and paying for interview prep / going to networking events isn't working.

I don't know Sasha, it's really hard to tag you anymore, but again, I would start thinking how to approach this strategy from a different direction. There's more than one way to skin a cat... err fox? Err... I don't condone violence against foxes.
 
Looks like you’ve got enough great advice already. The reality is you HAVE to play the game to advance. Go to NGPA, you never know how much fun you’ll have. I loathe being around several hundred other folks in suits vying for a job but it’s a part of the game.

Even if you don’t do the career fair see what volunteer opportunities are out there. I volunteer with OBAP because it’s something outside of flying that I enjoy but it’s also a major networking opportunity and I’d imagine it’s the same for NGPA.

If you don’t want to get the degree then that’s fine but understand you’ll have to find another way to compete with candidates that do have it. Whether that’s going to Breeze, ATI, becoming a LCP, etc.

The sage piece of advice I’ve gotten from mentors is not to turn down a call from a job where the name on the paycheck matches the name on the side of the plane. Brown wasn’t in my top 3 places I wanted to end up, hell probably not even top 5 but I answered the call and accepted the CJO. Who knows if I’ll stay but I’m relatively safe and it pays the bills. If somewhere else calls that’s upward progression take it and keep working towards your end goal.

If it’s age you’re getting wrapped around I wouldn’t worry too much. Earlier this week I read our average pilot age is 53 and the new hire average age is 48. A little different from the majors and I have my thoughts about that but American isn’t too far off from that last I read. Don’t get too wrapped up in the 26yr old influencers you see online.

Also the Bay Area may not be sustainable for you. I know with your schedule commuting would be miserable but there are some LGBT friendly places outside of CA.

Lastly and probably most important, find something that makes you happy outside of flying. I’ve been dealing with my own personal stuff and for me running has been an outlet. I’ve always done it but lately have set higher goals for myself over the past few years. 6mi a day is my starting point. I find myself not being as burned out about work/schedules and it relieves stress.
 
phill1174 said:
The reality is you HAVE to play the game to advance.
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One of the conversations (having already played this game exhaustively) I had with @derg (which was repeated with my best friend about 30 minutes later the same day) a few summers back, happily established at what was otherwise a good aviation job, ended with words to the effect of “goddamnit, fine” and the re-activation of AirlineApps.

“He’ll keep calling me…goddamnit…okay I’ll GO!”

phill1174 said:
If it’s age you’re getting wrapped around I wouldn’t worry too much. Earlier this week I read our average pilot age is 53 and the new hire average age is 48. A little different from the majors and I have my thoughts about that but American isn’t too far off from that last I read. Don’t get too wrapped up in the 26yr old influencers you see online.
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One note, though, is that the mean or even median age of the whole pilot population at carrier X isn’t a terribly useful indicator for future career prospects. I might be younger than the mean or even median age of my employer’s workforce, for example, but a rather large number of pilots senior to me also have retirement dates that are later than me—some of them by a decade or even more(!!!). That said—The social media people are loud and obnoxious and do little in the way of useful work. Aviation Instagram, beyond plane spotter accounts, is a miserable place for a whole bunch of reasons, and the algorithmic promotion of those oxygen consumers surely is one of them. “No. No. Stop showing me that, I’ve flown with them. Them too. Give me cool Japanese cat pictures and videos, and pictures of Cybertrucks on fire or stuck in the mud, damnit, that’s what this app is for.”

What happened between 2021 and roughly 2023 is, groan, “unprecedented,” at least in my living memory.
 
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