Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

[Ian_J]

I don’t like ECIC. I’ve used them previously. They’re very programmatic, to the point of you can almost tell someone has used them because they won’t answer the first question. They also refused (seriously) to provide me with any pointers or tips for Spirit, calling it quote a freebie unquote, which, well, maybe it is for the Squadron Buddies(tm) but I took it a little more seriously than that. It smacked of a level of arrogance I thought incompatible with job-seeking. (It turns out that Spirit’s pilot hiring people have finely tuned bullcrap detectors and that, unusually enough, you also sit down with someone who might well be your Chief Pilot as part of the interview and they are also on the hunt for people who will NOT be in their office frequently. They bounced a full 40% of the applicants the day I interviewed.)

That said, plenty of other good firms, like Centerline or Cage, exist. Can personally vouch for the former, but frankly, any of them are going to be useful in steering explanations for things needing explained.

You can’t do anything about items 1 through 3 in my “list of adverse hiring decisions” but you can, and should do something about 4.

On the topic of prep companies and arrogance, I used checked and set for my application review. The company was fine and the advice given was fine, but oh my God the guy who did my review was the most arrogant southern Jets Air Force Bro you could imagine. While he was very detailed and he certainly tightened up my application, he told me flat out I didn’t have much of a chance of getting to a legacy. Narrator: “ it turns out that prediction… Was wrong…”

For interview prep, I used Emerald Coast and I think it really depends on the person you draw to do the prep. The guy I had (who eventually quit and started his own company because of the shenanigans at Emerald Coast) was absolutely terrific and did not rely on the formulaic program you often hear about Emerald Coast. I think I was just lucky getting him. He really just focused on tightening up my rolodex of mental stories and mentally assigning a code for them so I could draw upon my own experiences when asked a question. Shark, if you are interested, I will happily pass along his contact information.

Spirit sounds a whole lot like frontier was. The day I interviewed only three of us out of 14 got the job offer.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

On the topic of prep companies and arrogance, I used checked and set for my application review. The company was fine and the advice given was fine, but oh my God the guy who did my review was the most arrogant southern Jets Air Force Bro you could imagine. While he was very detailed and certainly tightened up my application, he told me flat out I didn’t have much of a chance of getting to a legacy. Narrator: “ it turns out that prediction… Was wrong…”

For interview prep, I used Emerald Coast and I think it really depends on the person you draw to do the prep. The guy I had (who eventually quit and started his own company because of the shenanigans at Emerald Coast) was absolutely terrific and did not rely on the formulaic program you often hear about Emerald Coast. I think I was just lucky getting him. He really just focused on tightening up my rolodex of mental stories and mentally assigning a code for them so I could draw upon my own experiences when asked a question. Shark, if you are interested, I will happily pass along his contact information.

Spirit sounds a whole lot like frontier was. The day I interviewed only two of us out of 14 got the job offer.

“Checked and set” is a nonsense checklist response anyway so.

 

[Hiboglossi]

Quite a few SkyWest pilots went to Breeze and returned to SkyWest, which says a lot. In general I haven't heard good things.

Allegient—I don't want to work for an airline that throws their pilots under the bus that hard—I'm thinking of the guy who got fired for RTO in LAS, or the one who was termed for doing an evac with smoke in the cabin.

At Allegiant you would at least have union protection, so it's possible you'd be at less risk of being thrown under the bus than at SkyWest. Also that guy got fired for evacuating in 2015 so it's possible things have improved there since then. It might be difficult to get hired there now that hiring has slowed down so much industry-wide, and my understanding is their schedules are usually not commutable. But still, if you went there it could potentially be a way to wash off the regional stigma, and get a type rating that most of the legacies operate. Even with Breeze, I know you already have the type rating, but it could still wash off the regional stigma. I do get the sense it's easier to get hired at a major from another major than a regional.

This is why it became "anywhere else, and as fast as you can, please" for me when I was a Captain at your airline in a continuously understaffed category. And I was 20% in category and getting a required minimum line value of 92 hours. Forget it. The last time I dropped a trip at the Mormon Air Force was on the Brasilia, so I surely feel your pain.

I wound up having a REALLY good time (and making a boatload of money, gobs more than could ever be plausibly screwed out of OO) working somewhere I never figured I would while doing way in the less of flying, so you do the math there.

I think taking the first opportunity to escape the regionals is always the best strategy if you're at a regional, and it was my philosophy ever since I first went to the regionals. Granted in my case, I had and have a lot of marks of Cain on my record, so I knew I couldn't afford to be picky. That strategy seems to have worked out well for you, and for @Cherokee_Cruiser , based on what he said above about when he first went to VX.

They also refused (seriously) to provide me with any pointers or tips for Spirit, calling it quote a freebie unquote, which, well, maybe it is for the Squadron Buddies(tm) but I took it a little more seriously than that. It smacked of a level of arrogance I thought incompatible with job-seeking. (It turns out that Spirit’s pilot hiring people have finely tuned bullcrap detectors and that, unusually enough, you also sit down with someone who might well be your Chief Pilot as part of the interview and they are also on the hunt for people who will NOT be in their office frequently. They bounced a full 40% of the applicants the day I interviewed.)

Wow- that's pretty appalling. And yes, Spirit's interview certainly isn't a freebie, ask me how I know- although I couldn't get past the phone interview. Of course that was in November 2022 so I probably dodged a bullet, since I would probably be getting furloughed now had I been hired there then.

Now on the subject of interview prep generally, I thought I remembered the OP saying she has used it in the past? Still, it sounds like it could be helpful for her, given that it seems like she has gotten a number on interviews but hasn't gotten past them. It's something I probably should have done, since I have failed a lot of interviews myself- I never ended up using interview prep since most of the interviews I got were scheduled at short notice (including my successful interview at ATI). But that was in 2023 and in today's hiring climate I probably wouldn't be able to get away with that.

In the past I remember a number of people on here sneering at the concept of interview prep. It certainly seems like some companies that provide it are rather shady. But I also get the sense a lot of people who are charismatic and naturally good at interviews simply don't recognize how it may be a necessity for the rest of us.

 

[Baronman]

How does one go to Breeze and back to Skywest??? That seems crazy....Like how bad is Breeze?? Bad enough to go back to the bottom at SKYW???

 

[Screaming_Emu]

How does one go to Breeze and back to Skywest??? That seems crazy....Like how bad is Breeze?? Bad enough to go back to the bottom at SKYW???

A lot of people who come back “because it was better here” actually just had training issues.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

I'll try to make this succinct:

I'm not moving on to a legacy. Whether it's because I'm trans, I don't have a degree, they don't like my face, idk, but nobody's calling, and I'm 44.

I absolutely love the flying part of this job. I love taking care of my passengers, my crews, and the art and artistry of flying a transport category jet well. Being captain is wonderful, and the airplane I fly is, in my biased opinion, one of the best in the industry. My FOs and FAs often tell me that they love flying with me, and seem happy to see me on their schedules, and I love the crews I fly with.

But I'm tired. Bone tired. Chronically fatigued. My quality of life is nonexistent, and I have no control over my schedule. Senior captains at my airline with almost 30 years are saying same thing. We have no ability to modify our schedules—what we're awarded is what we fly unless we call out sick, which the company is extremely aggressive about. (We get 6 days per year before we start getting the side-eye. That's one 4-day and two locals.)

In my case, I'm at the bottom of the list for the entirety of the foreseeable future, so I'm getting AM short call reserve (2hr) at 3am, 18-19 days per month.

I get called every single reserve day, usually right at 3am for a 5am show. My circadian rhythm is permanently nocturnal—I don't go to sleep until 6am on my days off, which often leads to having less than an hour of poor-quality off-cycle sleep before my alarm goes off.

Tomorrow I have a 5am report time to work an 11 hour, 4-leg day—which will probably be 12-13+ hours, with delays factored in, followed by min rest (9.5 hours) and a 0355 show (base time) the next day.

It's literally shortening my lifespan and wrecking my life. There is no end in sight.

For the first time in more than ten years of flying professionally, I'm making enough to make ends meet. But only just barely. I'm touching about $200k of income, but that's really close to what I made in my first full year working in tech as a 19-year-old, when you adjust it for inflation. (For reference, tech jobs that I'm qualified for are around $210-$280k at the moment, which has also basically just scaled with inflation.)

It's still not enough to afford a house anywhere safe for me and my mates.

If I sound somewhat desperate, it's because I am. Something's got to give—I'm being run to death, and I don't know what to do.

All I've ever wanted to do was fly, and I still do, but I'm considering hanging up my wings.

I could use some advice.

(That said, I'm looking for advice, not 'tough love,' 'GeT A DeGReE' or any of that. I'm currently taking one class per term on the side in pursuit of knowledge, and I barely have enough time to do the minimum.)

I've been debating responding to this for a few days now. The above in bold describes my existence as a major airline captain on reserve perfectly. At least until a part flew off of one of our airplanes, Boeing got back on the radar and we magically became overstaffed.

Do I make more money? Sure. Does it help with the above in bold. No. I've already had to go through one reduction bid that I somehow miraculously managed to keep my seat. I've been a captain just over a year and there has been three different threats of downgrade from management. So I can't adjust my lifestyle to captain. I managed to take home quite a bit last year. But I'm no longer allowed to pick up. I guess technically I am allowed to again but there is nothing to pick up. I am still convinced that mgmt are just going to downgrade pilots at my airline anyway but they have chosen to divide the group by blaming pilots who don't show up while on reserve.

I put on close to 15# due to red eye reserve and the exact same lifestyle and schedule. I'm slowly crawling back to fitness after being able to be on 0230 reserve. Which feels like a dream compared to the red eye reserve circadian flip flop from being shifted from days on and days off and also being shifted from "short back" red eye trips that end at 10PM.

I briefly saw a nice schedule March of 2020. That fell apart during the pandemic and I never got a nice schedule again. Two reasons for first available upgrade were my schedule was fooked anyhow so I may as well make more money and I didn't have to deal with micromanagement anymore.

As an FO I had to deal with captains that:

- Didn't want to get de-iced despite an Anchorage mechanic and myself insisting it was way out of spec. to be considered "clean and dry".
- Changed my flight plan on my leg when I was in the lav and they told me there were "no changes" thinking I wouldn't notice.
- Didn't allow me to deviate for WX when I asked. Then got upset that I didn't deviate for WX.
- Exceeded limitations then threw me under the bus with FOQA
- This list is extremely extensive. But what you have to deal with as an FO at a "major" airline.

You have ALOT of dues paying ahead. Your human status makes this even more difficult than what I had to do with as well. Because let's just be real about pilots for a moment. Very few of us are as open minded and accepting as what you'd think you'd find here on JC.

Edit to add: No one cares if you're happy now. No one cares if I am happy. You have to find something to keep you going. In my opinion it's best if that thing is not employment related.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

As an FO I had to deal with captains that:

- Didn't want to get de-iced despite an Anchorage mechanic and myself insisting it was way out of spec. to be considered "clean and dry".
- Changed my flight plan on my leg when I was in the lav and they told me there were "no changes" thinking I wouldn't notice.
- Didn't allow me to deviate for WX when I asked. Then got upset that I didn't deviate for WX.
- Exceeded limitations then threw me under the bus with FOQA
- This list is extremely extensive. But what you have to deal with as an FO at a "major" airline.

Oh great. THIS again.

How about a list, when YOU were FO, CAs had to deal with. I really don’t want to hash this out again. But you need to stop, quit, and let it go.

 

[JordanD]

I've been debating responding to this for a few days now. The above in bold describes my existence as a major airline captain on reserve perfectly. At least until a part flew off of one of our airplanes, Boeing got back on the radar and we magically became overstaffed.

Do I make more money? Sure. Does it help with the above in bold. No. I've already had to go through one reduction bid that I somehow miraculously managed to keep my seat. I've been a captain just over a year and there has been three different threats of downgrade from management. So I can't adjust my lifestyle to captain. I managed to take home quite a bit last year. But I'm no longer allowed to pick up. I guess technically I am allowed to again but there is nothing to pick up. I am still convinced that mgmt are just going to downgrade pilots at my airline anyway but they have chosen to divide the group by blaming pilots who don't show up while on reserve.

I put on close to 15# due to red eye reserve and the exact same lifestyle and schedule. I'm slowly crawling back to fitness after being able to be on 0230 reserve. Which feels like a dream compared to the red eye reserve circadian flip flop from being shifted from days on and days off and also being shifted from "short back" red eye trips that end at 10PM.

I briefly saw a nice schedule March of 2020. That fell apart during the pandemic and I never got a nice schedule again. Two reasons for first available upgrade were my schedule was fooked anyhow so I may as well make more money and I didn't have to deal with micromanagement anymore.

As an FO I had to deal with captains that:

- Didn't want to get de-iced despite an Anchorage mechanic and myself insisting it was way out of spec. to be considered "clean and dry".
- Changed my flight plan on my leg when I was in the lav and they told me there were "no changes" thinking I wouldn't notice.
- Didn't allow me to deviate for WX when I asked. Then got upset that I didn't deviate for WX.
- Exceeded limitations then threw me under the bus with FOQA
- This list is extremely extensive. But what you have to deal with as an FO at a "major" airline.

You have ALOT of dues paying ahead. Your human status makes this even more difficult than what I had to do with as well. Because let's just be real about pilots for a moment. Very few of us are as open minded and accepting as what you'd think you'd find here on JC.

Edit to add: No one cares if you're happy now. No one cares if I am happy. You have to find something to keep you going. In my opinion it's best if that thing is not employment related.

This has not been a typical (or at all) experience for me. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but don’t act like this kind of thing is commonplace.

 

[word302]

Oh great. THIS again.

How about a list, when YOU were FO, CAs had to deal with. I really don’t want to hash this out again. But you need to stop, quit, and let it go.

He won't ever be happy working at AS. I'm coming up on 3 years and have had an amazing ride. Sure there's some kooky outliers but that's everywhere. I could hold a line in PDX but I bid down to reserve because it's been amazing. At one point about 6 weeks ago I had blocked 44 hours in the previous 6 months. Tell me more about the misery of being junior at a legacy.

 

[ppragman]

Edit to add: No one cares if you're happy now. No one cares if I am happy. You have to find something to keep you going. In my opinion it's best if that thing is not employment related.

I don't want to trivialize her situation, but reading this I have thought a few times, "man what I wouldn't give to have a • flying job again - even if it was at SKYW." Still, I think your point is correct, other than your family, very few people will give a • about if you are fulfilled (something I think about a lot these days as we careen towards AI oblivion). Fulfillment or satisfaction with the job isn't even considered by anyone other than by you and your immediate friends.

I had many friends give me a hard time for quitting jobs I didn't like (especially when I went back to Alaska), but the truth was that I was unhappy, and I realized that the path I was on was perhaps not the right path for me. But seriously OP, if you "make it" you may found that you are no more satisfied with the job than at SKYW.

But you're right @BEEF SUPREME , nobody gives a damn and something I did not learn for a long time was that, "oh, god, in this absurd world I have to make my own meaning," or if that's too existential for you, maybe I should just have a beer and enjoy it. Many many pilots I've met are chronically disappointed people. They're disappointed in their jobs, their coworkers, politics, you name it.

That disappointment is a learned behavior and they reinforce it by being chronically unhappy most of the time. It is possible to break out of that, but I'll be the first to admit it is hard. Remember, those neurons that fire together wire together, so if every time you get in the airplane you gripe with other crewmembers about the job, complain about politics, bad captains, stress about the weather, etc. before you know it just showing up to work will piss you off.

 

[derg]

“Checked and set” is a nonsense checklist response anyway so.

DOUGLAS! That’s a baseline reading of 12. We need you, optimally, at about a 7 or 8.

 

[SteveC]

I don't want to trivialize her situation, but reading this I have thought a few times, "man what I wouldn't give to have a • flying job again - even if it was at SKYW." Still, I think your point is correct, other than your family, very few people will give a • about if you are fulfilled (something I think about a lot these days as we careen towards AI oblivion). Fulfillment or satisfaction with the job isn't even considered by anyone other than by you and your immediate friends.

I had many friends give me a hard time for quitting jobs I didn't like (especially when I went back to Alaska), but the truth was that I was unhappy, and I realized that the path I was on was perhaps not the right path for me. But seriously OP, if you "make it" you may found that you are no more satisfied with the job than at SKYW.

But you're right @BEEF SUPREME , nobody gives a damn and something I did not learn for a long time was that, "oh, god, in this absurd world I have to make my own meaning," or if that's too existential for you, maybe I should just have a beer and enjoy it. Many many pilots I've met are chronically disappointed people. They're disappointed in their jobs, their coworkers, politics, you name it.

That disappointment is a learned behavior and they reinforce it by being chronically unhappy most of the time. It is possible to break out of that, but I'll be the first to admit it is hard. Remember, those neurons that fire together wire together, so if every time you get in the airplane you gripe with other crewmembers about the job, complain about politics, bad captains, stress about the weather, etc. before you know it just showing up to work will piss you off.

I’ve been saying for years, happiness is internal.

People don’t realize how much control they have, and allow outside stuff to run them.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Wow- that's pretty appalling.

Yep

And yes, Spirit's interview certainly isn't a freebie, ask me how I know- although I couldn't get past the phone interview. Of course that was in November 2022 so I probably dodged a bullet, since I would probably be getting furloughed now had I been hired there then.

Yeah, what has happened there has really sucked. I think they could have handled one or two of about the four things in the current mess, not all four at once.

Now on the subject of interview prep generally, I thought I remembered the OP saying she has used it in the past? Still, it sounds like it could be helpful for her, given that it seems like she has gotten a number on interviews but hasn't gotten past them. It's something I probably should have done, since I have failed a lot of interviews myself- I never ended up using interview prep since most of the interviews I got were scheduled at short notice (including my successful interview at ATI). But that was in 2023 and in today's hiring climate I probably wouldn't be able to get away with that.

In the past I remember a number of people on here sneering at the concept of interview prep. It certainly seems like some companies that provide it are rather shady. But I also get the sense a lot of people who are charismatic and naturally good at interviews simply don't recognize how it may be a necessity for the rest of us.

It serves its purpose. It's not a panacea. You need your own stories, not someone else's, and comments like that. It does help put a positive 'spin' on things, though. Like, one of the people at Centerline was the HR brain trust behind SkyWest's pilot hiring for decades, and if you think Cameille Ence can't help you with your interview, you're a loony.

I didn't do any of it for the most recent, successful mind you, trip to Georgia, for a bunch of reasons, but I would not and do not recommend that as a normal practice. Good cold beer story probably.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

DOUGLAS! That’s a baseline reading of 12. We need you, optimally, at about a 7 or 8.

"Checked and set!"
Me:

Also me when I see "seat belts/shoulder harnesses" on a 121 normal checklist but anyway.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

He won't ever be happy working at AS. I'm coming up on 3 years and have had an amazing ride. Sure there's some kooky outliers but that's everywhere. I could hold a line in PDX but I bid down to reserve because it's been amazing. At one point about 6 weeks ago I had blocked 44 hours in the previous 6 months. Tell me more about the misery of being junior at a legacy.

You got hired after the pandemic and saw the greatest seniority movement in the history of the airline where you work. You were able to hold one of the best, if not the best place to be FO almost immediately got a line right away when it was busy and now bid down to reserve because you can cherry pick the times to be an FO on reserve when it isn't busy.

This is as dumb or even more dumb than telling me I could start a million dollar plumbing business. You can't actually without millions in assets. It's the same behavior: just making things up that suit your narrative or cherry picking the few facts that fit your narrative.

As possibly the most annoying and active user on the internal forum you demonstrate this behavior daily.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

This has not been a typical (or at all) experience for me. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but don’t act like this kind of thing is commonplace.

What isn't typical? Getting threatened with downgrade 3 times? A global pandemic railroading seniority? Schrodinger's Staffing levels where we are somehow over and under staffed at the same time?

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Oh great. THIS again.

How about a list, when YOU were FO, CAs had to deal with. I really don’t want to hash this out again. But you need to stop, quit, and let it go.

Ask any of the FOs how I treat them. Any. Single. One. They all get treated the opposite of how I was treated. There are some cool baller captains out there that I really enjoyed spending time with. One got an email citing I emulate him and how he treats people on the line when he retires and how sad I was to see him go.

But portraying life at the major airlines as some kind of arena where you don't have to deal with completely socially retarded pilots on an almost daily basis is being dishonest to the OP. It's the same people at the regional/corporate/135 world. They just have a different uniform on. It's not even remotely honest.

Also we've hashed something out? I don't recall that. I've pointed out factual issues I've encountered on the line and you're so immature you take it personally. From what I hear you were no picnic to deal with at VX or AS. What have we hashed out? All I know about you is that you at the very least have some kind of mental illness you refer to as a poor sense of humor and few if any of your coworkers like you. Pretty typical of most pilots really but you're like a reactive dog to my posts for some reason.

 

[HJB]

made almost $700K last year.

 

[ppragman]

I’ve been saying for years, happiness is internal.

People don’t realize how much control they have, and allow outside stuff to run them.

I mean, there's a threshold, to it. It's really hard to be "happy" on minimum wage and working 60hrs a week. But, yeah, for the most part it's mostly internal after a certain point, and indeed you can even train yourself to be happier more often. Our brains are plastic and you do have some agency in changing how you feel about things (Viktor Frankl intensifies). To this people say, "oh you don't know what I'm going through, I couldn't possibly be happy in these conditions, you're just victim blaming, you just have it so easy" and maybe that's true, I definitely have it easier than others and I'm very fortunate, so maybe I cannot possibly understand.

But... on the flip side, I had multiple jobs in aviation where we legitimately ignored FARs as a company policy, I worked 50 hours + a week, and while I was home at night, I worked far more than many of of the malcontents I've seen complaining, I took a 50% paycut to get turbine time and moved 2700NM to "get ahead." It sucked, and there were times when I was absolutely miserable, and I complained too. I lost relationships, my sleep schedule, and it was bad for my health. There were times when it was goddamn terrible to fly for a living.

But then, suddenly, I couldn't do it anymore, and a lot of things were put in perspective, and I missed it. I should (arguably) be very miserable. I'm some sort of blind pelican now, and there's nothing sadder than a flightless bird. I can't see as well as I think I should be able to, I'm giving blood once a month to make sure I don't develop some horrific cancer, and there are a plethora of inconveniences and senses of myself that I've lost that should render me a quivering ball of sadness.

I have my moments.

But, also, I spent a significant amount of my time after I got sick thinking, "ok, if this is going to be my life I'm going to enjoy it" - not because it was good, but in defiance of the same uncaring and callous universe that put me here in the first place. Having fun and being happy are acts of defiance.

 

[Toobdrvr]

OP:

Read Derg’s and MikeD’s long posts over, and over again, until it clicks. Sooo much knowledge. Everything I wanted to say, but too busy/lazy to say it.

Hell, even CC dropped some wisdom. Who’d a thunk?

I know you said “I don’t want Tough Love”, but where many of us are sitting, that’s EXACTLY what you need.

You may not know this, but you and I have been acquainted for nearly 10 yrs now. We’ve even met a couple of times (I keep a pretty low pro). I’ve been following your progression, professional and otherwise. You’ve had a rough path. Some by circumstance, some by choice. The obstacles in front of us aren’t important, it’s how we choose to deal with them.

The only person you’d find on this site condoning your decision to quit the industry is, thankfully, long gone…

Stay in it and find a way to succeed, or ring the bell. Your call. I (and I think everyone else here) hope you hang in. We’re all cheering for you, and apparently willing to help any way we can.

AND COME TO PALM SPRINGS!!! WE HAVE CANDY!!!