Considering leaving the profession for good, could use advice

You asked for advice and got some. Dont lash out because you didnt get told what you wanted to hear.

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🦈💜 said:
I also will not be pressured into conforming, and tough love is bullying, not care.
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When the application, review, interview and hiring process is fundamentally formulaic in it's structure and procedure this attitude is going to leave you well behind the crowd when the available pool of people willing to follow the steps and check all the requisite criteria boxes outnumbers the available positions.
 
milleR said:
When the application, review, interview and hiring process is fundamentally formulaic in it's structure and procedure this attitude is going to leave you well behind the crowd when the available pool of people willing to follow the steps and check all the requisite criteria boxes outnumbers the available positions.
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We’re hiring at least 1200 this year.

If you boil down the entire applicant pool (meeting minimum qualifications) to exceeds minimum qualifications and then again into throwing in some ‘wish list’ stuff like space shuttle orbiter landings and PhD’s in molecular geochemistry (semi-sarcastically, of course), the hyper-competitive pool of applicants is still many multiples of the number of pilots to be hired.

The dynamics of 2022 and 2023 were just that, 2022 and 2023.

But it’s 2024 now.
 
derg said:
We’re hiring at least 1200 this year.

If you boil down the entire applicant pool (meeting minimum qualifications) to exceeds minimum qualifications and then again into throwing in some ‘wish list’ stuff like space shuttle orbiter landings and PhD’s in molecular geochemistry (semi-sarcastically, of course), the hyper-competitive pool of applicants is still many multiples of the number of pilots to be hired.

The dynamics of 2022 and 2023 were just that, 2022 and 2023.

But it’s 2024 now.
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If there's two people with similar qualifications and one has a degree and the other doesn't, especially not for a good reason, I can guess which one is going to get the CJO.
 
🦈💜 said:
I'm considering hanging up my wings.

I could use some advice.
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In April of 2011 I hung up my wings as an airline captain for a completely different career, so I'm offering my advice from that perspective. I also was not fond of early shows, but being a commuter for most of my career, I had to deal with them. When I finally managed to live in base, I still didn't like early shows. Going to bed early to wake up and walk to the subway by all the bars that were closing wasn't exactly fun. But, I did it, begrudgingly. So I feel your pain there.

I finally had to bail due to family reasons to improve my quality of life. In hindsight it was a great decision at the time. It provided me with a better quality of life, and because family is important to me, I didn't have time to sit and think about what I was missing in the airlines since I was too busy raising my children and focusing on advancing in my new career to provide for them. I don't think my children would be in the place they are in life if I wasn't able to raise them alone working bankers-type hours.

In my new career I had to take some risks as well, making some moves that could have worked against me. For instance, switching agencies and going through an entire new rigorous training program while my ex-wife was pregnant with our first child. If I failed, we wouldn't have income, and we had no savings. Talk about having motivation to succeed...

Because I took that risk, I was able to lead a successful career that led me back into a cockpit. Because of my return to aviation, that then led me into a teaching role in a college aviation program. Now, my life is in a place I never could have imagined if I would have stayed comfortable and slugged it out in my airline career. I learned that I am very passionate about teaching and mentoring. I had no interest in being a flight instructor when I was beginning my career, but now I just earned my AGI, I'm working on my IGI, and I love coming to the classroom to teach.

Because of my renewed passion for aviation, teaching and mentorship, I am exploring potential opportunities to return to the airlines or something similar. Who knows where my life might go at this point, but it has definitely not been what I expected when I was graduating college in 2003.

Enough about me... why do I share all this? My point is that leaving the airlines could be a very good choice for you. You may love flying, but do you love it enough to keep putting up with this stress? It takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to leave something you've put a lot of yourself into for something completely different. It is scary to make the jump. You have clearly made tough choices in your life and taken other risks to pursue happiness, and with those risks you seem to have found the happiness you are looking for. I do not know you... heck, I haven't been on these boards in years... but from reading your posts I get a feeling like you know it's time to leave for something new, but you want to hear that it will be OK. From someone who left, I will tell you, it will be OK. Leaving may take you directions you never imagined, and maybe eventually you will circle back. Or maybe you won't. Life is way too short to be constantly overloaded with stress. Go get a tech job, build a top-end PC, download Microsoft Flight Simulator, get a cup holder for your beer/whiskey/vodka/whatever, and stay up until 6am "flying." Sleep in, work hard, enjoy your friends and family, and try to rent a plane once or twice a month. It. Will. Be. OK.

I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.
 
I think the most remarkable thing about this thread is people are still posting amazing and great advice even when they've been dismissed. That says alot about the character of those individuals and to the website to some extent.
I'm •tier than the rest of you for sure. Someone wants a reason to leave, leave. More for those that want it.
 
mikecweb said:
I think the most remarkable thing about this thread is people are still posting amazing and great advice even when they've been dismissed. That says alot about the character of those individuals and to the website to some extent.
I'm •tier than the rest of you for sure. Someone wants a reason to leave, leave. More for those that want it.
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Dismissed or outright insulted.
 
🦈💜 said:
I've been debating whether to participate further, but I decided to reply.

Pretty much none of you know me very well, even after all this time. It's funny, because I've spent decades here listening to people's thoughts, hopes, fears and dreams on everything, trying to understand how you all view the world, and trying to provide a little perspective on viewpoints you might not have in your experience.

When I posted this last week, I was definitely at an emotional low, at a peak of mental and physical exhaustion. Some of you have been there. Some of you just think you have. Some have seen worse. Regardless, I was reaching out for support, advice, and to see if anyone had any creative ideas. A few people did—to those of you who actually listened to my request and took the time to reply, thank you.

To the rest: I know some of you put some thought and invested time in your responses, and for that you have my appreciation, but most of the replies are non-responsive to the issues I'm facing. Frankly, a significant amount of the thread was devoted to a "tough love" circlejerk, where people used my emotional state as a springboard to their grievances about me, my worldview, what they perceive as my attitude and nature. Furthermore, I am fairly angry with being told that I'm "making myself a victim," as it's the repetition of a rather meaningless "zinger."

A few notes:

I never said bad things happen because I'm trans. I really frankly don't give a rats ass about being trans—despite what you might think, it's not my identity, except inasmuch as I have to explain it. I've also chosen to be visible and stand up as an example to show that that we are among you, with the same hopes, dreams and problems as anyone else. I also am there so that when some closeted, scared transwoman gets off the flight, they see me.

But mostly, I really just want to not think about it. And when I spend two interviews getting misgendered, and I have to try to figure out how to explain to the interviewers that I'm not a guy with long hair, a pantsuit and no tie while they're sirring me, it does make me wonder whether it's a factor in my evaluation. Especially when it continues after I provide a polite correction. Was it malicious? I generally doubt it. But if it wasn't, then that misunderstanding certainly could set the tone going forward. Like I said, I have no idea if it was a factor. But the interview prep person seemed to think I would do well, as did the two CP M&Gs I did. According to the person doing logbook review, and my conversations with my fellow interviewees, I was far more qualified than most applicants they were seeing, and they seemed to talk like hiring me was a no-brainer. The truth is, I don't know, and never will. Perhaps I was competitive and they chose somebody else just barely ahead of me. Perhaps I rubbed someone the wrong way.

But none of that was the point. At all. I wasn't complaining about not getting hired, even if it hurts.

Next, the bizarre suggestion that there was something wrong with my home life is, frankly, irritating—my home life is extremely happy and the reason I'm stressed on my days off is that I don't want to leave.

As for the financial parts: I'm on track to make ~$200k this year, but it's going to be the first year I've done so, and in my previous 2-3 years as CA, the most I made was $92k. As an FO, I don't think I broke $50k. I made ends meet but just barely. So all of the people criticizing me for my financial choices are doing so mostly for their own benefit.

I also really, truly don't care about money, and the money was never the focus of the thing. I'm not in this career for money. I'm in because I love flying, and because I want quality of life, and right now I have none. I have no interest in "the brass ring" or anything of that nature. I would love a career that I can be loyal to and enjoy for a few more decades before I call it quits.

Sleep schedule: Yes, it's the root of a lot of the suck. I'm nocturnal. It's not a lifestyle choice, it's a physiological thing. I could get a sleep study done, but I don't see the point. Even if I could change my circadian rhythm, I wouldn't want to do it. Red-eyes are great for me, and if I could do an entire career of them it'd be great. AM flying, for me, IS back-side-of-the-clock. But I'm also just working way too much to be healthy. And it's not just me—all of the FOs have noticed that all of us in the left seat are zombies. Many of my friends here want out ASAP because they're so burnt out and exhausted. That includes people with 20+ years of seniority.

My leaving my prior job: I didn't quit my job as capriciously as some of you seem to think. I left for the right reasons, and they're still valid.
The gritty details, if anyone cares: After surgery, I was physically unable to work the schedules captains work at my shop. But my twelve weeks of FMLA was up and the surgeon considered me fit to work (Because if I worked a reasonable 9-5 job 5-days a week, I would be. But not 12-14 hour days with no privacy and min-rest in a Comfort Suites in Redmond). I didn't have any reason not to go back on the line, and the company was pressing me to come back, and so I offered my resignation. By the time my CP offered me a LOA instead, I already had tech work lined up as well as multiple airline interviews, and I didn't want to string them along. I also wanted to focus on my health and get back to athleticism and fitness. With the information I had at the time, it was one of the best—and hardest—decisions I've ever made.

Career changing/paying your dues: I'm not a career changer, and I didn't have parents pay my way through training. I couldn't get a loan for college or flight school. I've paid my dues many times over, thank you. I've been flying professionally for a decade now. Yes, I know that lots of people did it for longer before they made it to a "career destination," and there are lots of people who've had it worse, overall, than I have. I'm not complaining comparatively. Heck, my first CFI back in the mid 1990s had thousands of hours and was instructing in an aztec hoping to hit 1000 multi so he could get on with a regional. (He geared up the aztec, and as far as I know left aviation)

The summary: The long and short of it is that my motivations aren't likely the same as yours. I also will not be pressured into conforming, and tough love is bullying, not care. Don't project your motivations on to me, give me the advice you'd give yourself, and expect me to thank you for it. I'm asking for advice that applies to the me I thought you guys knew.

The last thing I'll say is that there's a certain tone-deafness to suggesting that LGBTQ+ people should tread softly to avoid pissing off allies right now. It's very much a "thoughts and prayers" response from "the white moderate," as the saying goes. Very much like the "I support black people, but I don't want 'em marching down my street." If you're not paying attention to the erosion of trans rights or the rising tide of violence, bathroom bills, discriminatory legislation, and so on, we probably seem like we're just being dramatic. I would suggest you educate yourself.

I will concede that I wasn't very clear in my original post or my replies, since I was incredibly stressed, and pressed for time, and posting from my phone. But I would like to think that I'd earned a little bit of respect and latitude over the years here, and that you all knew me better.

Apparently I was wrong.

Ta.
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I’m glad you took some time to mull things over and tried to digest the ideas/suggestions many have given.

I don’t think it was very appropriate to defecate on everyone’s earnest, if perhaps brutal, advice. You asked for words of wisdom and got people to go to perhaps uncomfortable lengths in an attempt to help you succeed moving forward but that’s just “tough love” in your mind that you predetermined you didn’t need.

Time to pivot; AS didn’t hire you… pivot to another carrier. Don’t want to work for another carrier? Pivot to another sector of aviation. Just like “paying dues” you have to play the game in order to advance. You can’t upend the Monopoly board in life and then be upset when you have to restart the game over from square one. So don’t start over again… pivot.

I hope it all works out in the end for you.
 
Reading back through the thread on day off #2, with more time to actually focus, I was wrong. I apologize.

Generally, the thread feels much less hostile. Condescending in places, but generally not hostile. But again, I'm telling you straight up, I'm spending 200% of my good social energy at work, and I'm overtly begging you for a lot of leeway here.

To be completely clear, I got a lot of good advice here that I've taken to heart. Examples:
• Go literally anywhere else (and some good examples) from @Boots2Wings
• Consider a different type of flying (part 91, etc. I don't want to clean out the lav for some rich guy so I'm not really interested, but it's still appreciated) from @ZapBrannigan
• Various online degree suggestions (though I did mention that I'm currently taking classes and am having trouble finding enough time for a single one)
• CLEP is a good suggestion, though I'm determined not to get a degree until after I have a job so that I have a purity of motivation for it.
• Find another job now, then move to it.
• Taking sick time to try to recover.
• don't run from it because the "right now" feels like forever.
• Reach out to ngpa
• Get out of your current shop as fast as you can, and other tidbits by @Autothrust Blue who dropped in for the occasion.
• Consider places that you previously wouldn't have considered, like Allegient, as they mave have changed

I also got a lot of support from folks. I was, in what little free time I had between legs, reading through. And a lot of people came out of the woodwork with advice I appreciated, like @Cherokee_Cruiser

But I'm a cornered animal right now, and I asked you to not poke me with sticks. I pleaded.

There are some specific barbs that got under my skin, like criticizing my personal life or my family (my biggest source of happiness by far). I'm not even sure where that came from. And lots of little digs about how I "foolishly" left my previous job.

And lastly, this:
And lastly the part that got me to reply and if I am being 100% honest pissed me off is this • you keep pushing “It's still not enough to afford a house anywhere safe for me and my mates.” it is insulting to all your allies who stand up for you and fight for you. Why should I fight for you when you aren’t willing to stand next to me in that fight? Nobody is hunting trans people
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This is a great example of how not to be an ally, and it's what really made me stew. And everybody "like"d it.
You should fight for what you believe is right. You should fight for marginalized people because it's the right thing to do, even if they themselves won't or can't stand up for themselves. There are many trans people assaulted/accosted/attacked/murdered in red states for being trans, because bigots have been whipped into a frenzy. You think I should move there and take my family so that I don't "insult" the people there who are fighting for "me"? Believe me, I have family and friends in places like that who are fighting every day to make things better there, and I love them for it. I don't forget that even 60% red is still 40% blue. But that doesn't mean I want to go fight on the front lines right now, or subject my mates to hateful bigots.

Just because you don't see this stuff doesn't mean that we don't, and it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

To those of you who've said "There are trans folk at my airline," ask them. Don't speak for them. Because I know some of them, and most of us are looking at it from similar points of view. A lot of us are in similar places right now.

But again, like I said, I'm under a great deal of stress at the moment, all of it work. (Well, and the state of the world) I know that my life needs to change, and I don't know if I have the time to just "keep doing what I'm doing" before I burn out.
 
I mean, we each have our own mental, educational, vocational, social, and financial issues we have to overcome for our 121 goals (some way less than others), and you got there. That's the hard part. You found your way into 121, you left, then you came back. If you missed it enough to come back, then that is what you wanted. Actions speak louder than our nagging thoughts. If you don't care about money to a reasonable extent, and being with your mates is priority #1, why not JSX direct entry captain (assuming they have OAK and not just DAL at the moment)? The OAK pilots are usually home every single night, and when a friend living in SF with no car who used BART to work would arrive late due to delays and miss the last train, they'd Uber him home. They'd also uber him from SF to OAK if he ever picked up trips for them. Seems like a good place if you don't mind flying to the same few cities in 40-90 min sectors all day. The same friend at JSX I mentioned turned down a nearly $130k FO job flying a KingAir for Netflix SJC-BUR-SJC 2x daily 5 days a week, home to SJC each day by like 1800 I think and a large break at SJC in the middle of the day where you could probably go home. Of course, there would still be early shows doing these (not airline outstation to hub first flight early, mind you), but at least you're getting up in your own bed and not a Ramada in Redmond, and then getting back into it that evening.

Reading all this, really my strongest impression is GTFO of OO ASAP however possible because its killing you. Once you do, I'll bet your mind clears up a bit and you can prepare a solid career plan going forward. Even a flippin' FO gig for less than $300/day to start at JSX would probably have you feeling better than you do now honestly. At least a lot of people care about you in the mean time.
 
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