Commercial Expectations

[Murdoughnut]

Hey guys - although I have no plans of flying commercially, I'm probably going to work towards my CPL this fall/winter with my flying club. I want to further my piloting skills, and being able to say that I'm a commercially licensed pilot is actually somewhat helpful for my career in airport management.

I'm looking for a high level overview of what the training involves. I see that it requires 20 hours of training with a CFI, 10 hours of that in actual/sim instrument, and 10 hours solo. Is the time with the instructor mostly spent on the practical exam maneuvers or are there other elements? What can I expect there? Is the instrument time spent doing cross countries, approaches, etc.? What about the solo time - am I just tooling around to meet the xcountry requirements?

I've read the requirements and standards, just looking for a high level take on what the flying will actually be. This will be helpful in determining which of my clubs' instructors I want to fly with. Thanks!

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Hey guys - although I have no plans of flying commercially, I'm probably going to work towards my CPL this fall/winter with my flying club. I want to further my piloting skills, and being able to say that I'm a commercially licensed pilot is actually somewhat helpful for my career in airport management.

I'm looking for a high level overview of what the training involves. I see that it requires 20 hours of training with a CFI, 10 hours of that in actual/sim instrument, and 10 hours solo. Is the time with the instructor mostly spent on the practical exam maneuvers or are there other elements? What can I expect there? Is the instrument time spent doing cross countries, approaches, etc.? What about the solo time - am I just tooling around to meet the xcountry requirements?

I've read the requirements and standards, just looking for a high level take on what the flying will actually be. This will be helpful in determining which of my clubs' instructors I want to fly with. Thanks!

I actually found CSEL kinda boring. I loved instrument. CSEL is all about energy management. A good skill, but I found the flying boring at least in say comparison to instrument. Which to me was more akin to a surgeons fine touch, or rather skill with a scalpel.

 

[ILS37R]

The instruction is mostly maneuvers and can be pretty fun (if occasionally frustrating). It's no aerobatics, but it's more performance and precision oriented than you what saw in IR or PPL. The way I used to break it down was PPL is, "How not to die in a plane," IR, "How not to die in a cloud," and CPL, "How to actually fly." Back when I instructed regularly, CPL was by far my favorite certificate to teach.

*That said* the x-country tickers can be irritating if you don't have a reason to fly the flights, anyway, and a lot of the book work will be about work rules you're not terribly likely to encounter and, if you do, you'd be advised to look up, anyway. So that kinda sucks

Hey guys - although I have no plans of flying commercially, I'm probably going to work towards my CPL this fall/winter with my flying club. I want to further my piloting skills, and being able to say that I'm a commercially licensed pilot is actually somewhat helpful for my career in airport management.

I'm looking for a high level overview of what the training involves. I see that it requires 20 hours of training with a CFI, 10 hours of that in actual/sim instrument, and 10 hours solo. Is the time with the instructor mostly spent on the practical exam maneuvers or are there other elements? What can I expect there? Is the instrument time spent doing cross countries, approaches, etc.? What about the solo time - am I just tooling around to meet the xcountry requirements?

I've read the requirements and standards, just looking for a high level take on what the flying will actually be. This will be helpful in determining which of my clubs' instructors I want to fly with. Thanks!

 

[Space Monkey]

Hey guys - although I have no plans of flying commercially, I'm probably going to work towards my CPL this fall/winter with my flying club. I want to further my piloting skills, and being able to say that I'm a commercially licensed pilot is actually somewhat helpful for my career in airport management.

It's a trap!

 

[milleR]

@killbilly can offer some pretty solid guidance on this

 

[killbilly]

Caveat: although I'm qualified to teach it, I haven't actually had a commercial student yet. I keep getting new privates and, lately, instrument students.

First question - are you instrument rated? If so, proceed. If not, stop, get your IR first. There is nothing more useless than a CSEL with the no IR limitations.
Second question - can you hold at least a Class 2 medical? If so, proceed.
Third question - do you have access to a complex aircraft?

I'm assuming you're training part 61, which means there are options. Since you're trying to select instructors, what I'd do if I were you is interview each of them. Ask if they use a syllabus for CSEL, and more importantly, can they show it to you? Different instructors approach this different ways.

Commercial really isn't that hard or taxing. You need to understand the regs and the concept of "holding out" - which I expect you do. The maneuvers are straightforward, well-documented and, if taught correctly, easy to fly.

 

[Inverted25]

Caveat: although I'm qualified to teach it, I haven't actually had a commercial student yet. I keep getting new privates and, lately, instrument students.

First question - are you instrument rated? If so, proceed. If not, stop, get your IR first. There is nothing more useless than a CSEL with the no IR limitations.
Second question - can you hold at least a Class 2 medical? If so, proceed.
Third question - do you have access to a complex aircraft?

I'm assuming you're training part 61, which means there are options. Since you're trying to select instructors, what I'd do if I were you is interview each of them. Ask if they use a syllabus for CSEL, and more importantly, can they show it to you? Different instructors approach this different ways.

Commercial really isn't that hard or taxing. You need to understand the regs and the concept of "holding out" - which I expect you do. The maneuvers are straightforward, well-documented and, if taught correctly, easy to fly.

Don’t need complex if you have a TAA


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[killbilly]

Don’t need complex if you have a TAA


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I thought that was for the CFI ride, but you still needed complex for the CSEL....

Now I gotta look it up...

EDIT - aha. They're interchangeable - I couldn't remember the actual change in 2018. This is what happens when I don't have commercial students.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I thought that was for the CFI ride, but you still needed complex for the CSEL....

Now I gotta look it up...

EDIT - aha. They're interchangeable - I couldn't remember the actual change in 2018. This is what happens when I don't have commercial students.

Yeah, my school got rid of the Arrow after the rule change, because our DA40's sufficed as a TAA for the CSEL.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I've read the requirements and standards, just looking for a high level take on what the flying will actually be. This will be helpful in determining which of my clubs' instructors I want to fly with. Thanks!

The flying is a handful of maneuvers you will probably never do again, unless you are teaching a commercial student. That said, they aren't terribly challenging either. 100% VFR. You probably want the instructor that most recently did their commercial ride, or someone that actually signs off a fair number of them. For the X/C, I would also choose the CFI based on their willingness/availability to go someplace you actually want to 2+ hours away (if you do it all at once, you are wasting someone's weekend for them). It also doesn't have to be one CFI - I used several. The solo experience is just a 300 mile flight with 3 landing points.

I would strongly suggest planning to do all of the CFI training more or less concurrently (CFI has no specific aeronautical experience requirements, so there can be a good bit of overlap). At least for me, I would say it was 90% the same practical flight, I did the Comm Airplane on a Saturday and CFI-Airplane on the next day (both as added ratings, so no FSDO, maybe harder to schedule as initial rides). Oral exams are obviously quite different, but if you are prepared for the CFI, you'll be prepared for Commercial Airplane anyway. This adds 3 written tests (a few hundred bucks and 5 to 6 hours of your life taking them), a spin endorsement that is actually fun, and a ton more time studying.

I would also suggest getting the box-checking type of stuff out of the way first -- the things that you won't demonstrate on the ride and aren't time sensitive or particularly expensive (written exam, night/day X/C, solo X/C (if needed), studying, and the spin endorsement if you do the CFI as well.)

I never planned to flying for a living (and still don't), and I think the Comm/CFI were quite a bit easier and cheaper to get than Private/Instrument were. CFI has been very useful to have, commercial not so much, your mileage may and will vary. Hope that helps!

 

[Murdoughnut]

Caveat: although I'm qualified to teach it, I haven't actually had a commercial student yet. I keep getting new privates and, lately, instrument students.

First question - are you instrument rated? If so, proceed. If not, stop, get your IR first. There is nothing more useless than a CSEL with the no IR limitations.
Second question - can you hold at least a Class 2 medical? If so, proceed.
Third question - do you have access to a complex aircraft?

I'm assuming you're training part 61, which means there are options. Since you're trying to select instructors, what I'd do if I were you is interview each of them. Ask if they use a syllabus for CSEL, and more importantly, can they show it to you? Different instructors approach this different ways.

Commercial really isn't that hard or taxing. You need to understand the regs and the concept of "holding out" - which I expect you do. The maneuvers are straightforward, well-documented and, if taught correctly, easy to fly.

1) I am instrument rated
2) No - I'm on Basic Med - but I'm not doing this to fly for $$$, doing it just to check off a bucket list item, and possibly to CFI in my club (turns out you can be paid as a CFI under Basic Med)
3) I have access to complex aircraft, but would be doing it in a pimped out Archer qualifying as a TAA

My biggest issue is that our Club requires us to use Club instructors - which don't have a lot of availability.

 

[Murdoughnut]

The flying is a handful of maneuvers you will probably never do again, unless you are teaching a commercial student. That said, they aren't terribly challenging either. 100% VFR. You probably want the instructor that most recently did their commercial ride, or someone that actually signs off a fair number of them. For the X/C, I would also choose the CFI based on their willingness/availability to go someplace you actually want to 2+ hours away (if you do it all at once, you are wasting someone's weekend for them). It also doesn't have to be one CFI - I used several. The solo experience is just a 300 mile flight with 3 landing points.

I would strongly suggest planning to do all of the CFI training more or less concurrently (CFI has no specific aeronautical experience requirements, so there can be a good bit of overlap). At least for me, I would say it was 90% the same practical flight, I did the Comm Airplane on a Saturday and CFI-Airplane on the next day (both as added ratings, so no FSDO, maybe harder to schedule as initial rides). Oral exams are obviously quite different, but if you are prepared for the CFI, you'll be prepared for Commercial Airplane anyway. This adds 3 written tests (a few hundred bucks and 5 to 6 hours of your life taking them), a spin endorsement that is actually fun, and a ton more time studying.

I would also suggest getting the box-checking type of stuff out of the way first -- the things that you won't demonstrate on the ride and aren't time sensitive or particularly expensive (written exam, night/day X/C, solo X/C (if needed), studying, and the spin endorsement if you do the CFI as well.)

I never planned to flying for a living (and still don't), and I think the Comm/CFI were quite a bit easier and cheaper to get than Private/Instrument were. CFI has been very useful to have, commercial not so much, your mileage may and will vary. Hope that helps!

Very helpful - thanks!

 

[drunkenbeagle]

My biggest issue is that our Club requires us to use Club instructors - which don't have a lot of availability.

Well, all the more incentive for them to want you to be a CFI

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

The number if hours aside, I see three components to training for the rating.

• Maneuvers. The usefulness of some can be argued but the goal is to demonstrate more master of the airplane than was shown for the private. But the real goal is smoothness so you don't scare the passengers.
• Systems. You expected to know how things work to a greater degree.
• Regulations. this is all about what you can, and more importantly, cannot do with a commercial certificate. IMO, the main concept to understand is that there is a big difference between the privileges of a commercial pilot certificate and the privileges of a commercial operator certificate. Understand that and all the rules fall into place.

 

[CFI A&P]

I'd say the most important academic part of the commercial is fully understanding the concept of holding out. When can you get paid, and by who? The FAA gets very interested in flying once money changes hands and there should be special emphasis on this area to prevent yourself from flying an illegal charter.

The triangle or long cross country - pick two airports that you would otherwise never go to. Out to the beach, or a mountainous place... When it came time for the 100nm legs, most of the flights I did for students were out in the late afternoon, had dinner, and back after dark - checked both boxes in the same day.

Once you finish the commercial, go right into the CFI-A. It is the same checkride, just from the other seat and you're explaining everything while you do it.

 

[bike21]

Don’t need complex if you have a TAA


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New • has to come to light man!

 

[Murdoughnut]

Thanks everyone. Additional question - does the hood time for my instrument rating cover the required 10 hours for the CPL? I had been led to believe so, but then I saw something else saying that unless it was noted to cover the areas of the CPL in your logbook, it doesn't count. What say ye?

 

[Old Pete]

Thanks everyone. Additional question - does the hood time for my instrument rating cover the required 10 hours for the CPL? I had been led to believe so, but then I saw something else saying that unless it was noted to cover the areas of the CPL in your logbook, it doesn't count. What say ye?

This is interesting, because I remember when this requirement was was added to the the commercial ca 2007. I argued that it did count but, the DPE I had planned to do my check-ride with disagreed. So I scheduled with a different DPE supervised by a different FSDO. Eventually he agreed. But it’s been a while since I’ve trained or signed off anyone for a com.

 

[killbilly]

Thanks everyone. Additional question - does the hood time for my instrument rating cover the required 10 hours for the CPL? I had been led to believe so, but then I saw something else saying that unless it was noted to cover the areas of the CPL in your logbook, it doesn't count. What say ye?

For it to apply, it needs to be noted as applying to both experience requirements.

The original Theriault interpretation: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or.../2010/Theriault_2010_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

The clarification to AOPA:

https://jasonblair.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/hartzell-2010-legal-interpretation.pdf

This is one of those things where the writing of the reg didn't align with the spirit of the reg, near as I can tell.