Cirrus Pilots

[OldTownPilot]

I have enough hours to fly the thing without the insurance company breathing down my neck. Probably 30 or so, but my job isn't to fly the things. As far as I remember you just started flying one mere months ago. I've been doing this for nearly two years. I do way more on the D.O. side of things, MX, and dealing with the sales and CTC reps than I do flying the airplane. Once you start doing more than just flying the airplane, you see through the company a lot more. I'd personally be flying the school's 150 over the Cirrus.


I've said WAY too much about this.

EDIT: And how do you not know what the CHTs should be in that specific airplane? Engines don't just blow up. They give signs, CHT is the biggest of them to monitor the health of the engine. Now this -20 that runs "really hot" why the hell are you flying it? There's probably a problem with it. Thats what baffles me the most. The more you open your mouth the more you sound like one of the stereotypical clueless cirrus pilots that a lot of people laugh at.

 

[minitour]

Just curious: What type of engine monitoring instruments did AMF use to come up with this "data" to "prove" shock cooling?

It seems engine manufacturers don't mention it a whole lot (aside from what was previously mentioned), so I'm wondering how AMF got their numbers.

-mini

 

[jhugz]

I have enough hours to fly the thing without the insurance company breathing down my neck. Probably 30 or so, but my job isn't to fly the things. As far as I remember you just started flying one mere months ago. I've been doing this for nearly two years. I do way more on the D.O. side of things, MX, and dealing with the sales and CTC reps than I do flying the airplane. Once you start doing more than just flying the airplane, you see through the company a lot more. I'd personally be flying the school's 150 over the Cirrus.


I've said WAY too much about this.

Well with all this experience, why would you say something as stupid as the chute kills more people then it saves? An obvious false statement. Doesn't make any sense to me.
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[jtrain609]

Just curious: What type of engine monitoring instruments did AMF use to come up with this "data" to "prove" shock cooling?

It seems engine manufacturers don't mention it a whole lot (aside from what was previously mentioned), so I'm wondering how AMF got their numbers.

-mini

CHT gauges and blown up engines. Look at it like this:

Amflight has 40 Chieftains, so 80 engines. They used to have even more than that when they had the Lances around with nearly the same engine.

When you operate that fleet for 30 years, you start to see data that the engine manufactures don't have. Lycoming would request data from companies like Amflight and Airnet so they could find out how their products were doing out in the field.

Speaking of, Airnet kept the power up on their Chieftains on approach too eh? You guys just put gear out sooner.

 

[OldTownPilot]

Well with all this experience, why would you say something as stupid as the chute kills more people then it saves? An obvious false statement. Doesn't make any sense to me.
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I see you paid just as much attention to my reply the first time as you do the instruments in your airplane.


I'll give you a subtle hint:

And how much of that poor ADM is caused by that chute and the shady marketing? How many of those people would never do what they did in the cirrus, in a comparable airplane like a 210 or a Columbia?

Nobody will ever have hard facts because they are dead, and you know that, so why do you ask? Plus thats why I said "probably killed" anyways.

That save number that you posted a link to is great and all if you want to know the total number of people that experienced a parachute ride. Not the number of people it truly saved.

 

[trafficinsight]

CHT gauges and blown up engines. Look at it like this:

Amflight has 40 Chieftains, so 80 engines. They used to have even more than that when they had the Lances around with nearly the same engine.

When you operate that fleet for 30 years, you start to see data that the engine manufactures don't have. Lycoming would request data from companies like Amflight and Airnet so they could find out how their products were doing out in the field.

Speaking of, Airnet kept the power up on their Chieftains on approach too eh? You guys just put gear out sooner.

Hey, question... you may not know this, but when it came time for overhaul who did it and what parts were used?

 

[jhugz]

I see you paid just as much attention to my reply the first time as you do the instruments in your airplane.


I'll give you a subtle hint:



That save number that you posted a link to is great and all if you want to know the total number of people that experienced a parachute ride. Not the number of people it truly saved.

I fly about 8 different types of GA airplanes, not only could I not tell you some engine operating limitations I don't know if I could tell you V-Speeds off the top of my head. That's why they put those cool color coded arc's and red lines in airplanes SkyGod.
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[minitour]

CHT gauges and blown up engines. Look at it like this:

Your CHTs had all 6 cylinders or was it just the "standard" chieftain CHT gauge that had a needle pointing to a number?

Amflight has 40 Chieftains, so 80 engines. They used to have even more than that when they had the Lances around with nearly the same engine.

When you operate that fleet for 30 years, you start to see data that the engine manufactures don't have. Lycoming would request data from companies like Amflight and Airnet so they could find out how their products were doing out in the field.

I understand that, just trying to figure out how the guys that do the seminars are using instruments to record very specific times/conditions and they're saying shock cooling is (more or less) a myth........but that's being discounted based on CHT gauges and blown up engines?

...nothing else could have made the engines blow up?

Speaking of, Airnet kept the power up on their Chieftains on approach too eh? You guys just put gear out sooner.

150-ish at the marker and 100 at DH, IIRC. Gear by 1000'.

-mini

 

[bdhill1979]

Fuzzy? Bro this is the health of your engine, and you've only got one. This is one of those things that isn't generally hammered into people as something to monitor, and if you want to be a professional, a real guru with this airplane, you need to know these numbers, what the normal values should be and how to get them.

So you're saying that you go from the high 300's in cruise to completely idle and they get down to 340...in a few minutes? Have you really gone to idle power with your CHT's that high? Don't believe the hype that they're sellin' ya bro, because if you're really going to idle power with that high of a CHT, on an engine that big, you're gonna hurt something eventually.

Take it from Justin, he grew up in a hangar, has Cirrus time, has an engineering degree and is most likely smarter than both of us put together, doing that will blow up the engine.

Even when we did stall recoveries with nearly the same engine, we'd stage cool prior to doing so, so we had our engine in that CHT zone where we could add or take away power without doing TOO MUCH damage, and then we were fairly ginger with it.

I really can't fathom not knowing those numbers cold either. Hell when I picked it up from having the jug job done I got the "junior" mechanic (35+ years mechanic and piloting experience) pulled me aside, and gave me the lecture on the temperatures that it better be running or else. Then to have the "Senior" mechanic (50+ years mechanic and piloting experience) do the exact same thing.

We live and die by this equipment, and saying its no big deal is asking for trouble.

 

[jtrain609]

Your CHTs had all 6 cylinders or was it just the "standard" chieftain CHT gauge that had a needle pointing to a number?

I understand that, just trying to figure out how the guys that do the seminars are using instruments to record very specific times/conditions and they're saying shock cooling is (more or less) a myth........but that's being discounted based on CHT gauges and blown up engines?

...nothing else could have made the engines blow up?

150-ish at the marker and 100 at DH, IIRC. Gear by 1000'.

-mini

Let me attempt to put this in terms that will make sense to you:

Amflight owns these aircraft, and these engines outright. They stopped running them balls to the walls years ago because they were using too much fuel, and they stopped shock cooling them years ago because they were killing engines. The end result? Lower fuel burn, less wear and tear, longer engine life.

Again, do whatever it is you want with your engines, but when a $40,000 engine is on the line, this company has done all it could to prolong that engine life.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

If this data that Amflight has is so profound, why isn't it public domain? I would certainly hope that all this marvelous data is being forwarded to the brains at Lycoming so that we may one day see some sort of technical paper on the subject. Flight Express had an article published in AOPA or Flying, can't remember, about their preferred operating methods. They certainly intended to spread their knowledge on the operation of the IO-540. If Amflight isn't in the business of sharing their data in order to improve the safety and reliabilty of the piston engine fleet, well...

 

[bdhill1979]

If this data that Amflight has is so profound, why isn't it public domain? I would certainly hope that all this marvelous data is being forwarded to the brains at Lycoming so that we may one day see some sort of technical paper on the subject. Flight Express had an article published in AOPA or Flying, can't remember, about their preferred operating methods. They certainly intended to spread their knowledge on the operation of the IO-540. If Amflight isn't in the business of sharing their data in order to improve the safety and reliabilty of the piston engine fleet, well...

Why would they share major cost cutting procedures with their competition?

 

[Joe Gremlin]

If Amflight isn't in the business of sharing their data in order to improve the safety and reliabilty of the piston engine fleet, well...

Amflight, along every other company on the planet, is in business to make a profit. Period. I don't think its reasonable to take a company to task for choosing not to release information to the public which could make them less competitive.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Amflight, along every other company on the planet, is in business to make a profit. Period. I don't think its reasonable to take a company to task for choosing not to release information to the public which could make them less competitive.

So the only way Amflight is turning a profit is because their competitors are blowing up engines?

 

[Stone Cold]

Let me attempt to put this in terms that will make sense to you:

Amflight owns these aircraft, and these engines outright. They stopped running them balls to the walls years ago because they were using too much fuel, and they stopped shock cooling them years ago because they were killing engines. The end result? Lower fuel burn, less wear and tear, longer engine life.

Again, do whatever it is you want with your engines, but when a $40,000 engine is on the line, this company has done all it could to prolong that engine life.

No, they stopped running them balls to the wall because they were more into the UPS/DHL whomever feeds, right? Other Amflight pilots on here have said they really have no deadlines. Keep to the schedule and mostly do out, sit, and backs, correct?

I know I was trained in the Chieftain to be gentle with the engines. Yes, we stage cooled them, and flew them like they had a purpose...to meet the jets. Trust me, do a 8 leg day out of PHL with 10 minute turns and you will do everything in your power, and by the way the company wants the airplane flown, to keep that deadline.

 

[Joe Gremlin]

So the only way Amflight is turning a profit is because their competitors are blowing up engines?

Who said that? You seem to be of the belief that private companies have some sort of fiduciary duty to share any safety information they obtain with the rest of the world. My point was that the only fiduciary duty any company has is to make a profit. And when a company discovers operating methods which allow them to cut operating costs and therefore become more profitable, sharing that information with their competitors is not something that most MBA's would consider to be a good business practice. In fact most would say that it's a very poor business practice. What part of that is so difficult to understand?

 

[bdhill1979]

I think something that needs to be said here is that shock cooling is widely mis-understood as an immediate catastrophic failure if you allow it to happen to the engine; I have only heard of one extreme case where this happened and it was I believe in a P210 at FL250.

The cumulative effects of repeated shock cooling is more what I am concerned with. When we bought our 210 the cylinders were shot at only 300 hours since a brand new engine. The previous owner, the one time I flew with him, scared the living hell out of me the way he flew that airplane. Doing all the things that have been taught to us as bad mojo for an engine, and when I pointed that out his exact words were "Its no big deal". That "No Big Deal" cost $30,000 to fix.

The point that I am trying to make here is that not only are we concerned with our safety, but for those of us that actually get paid to fly them, the Mx bill our company pays, and the potential down time (that I don't get paid for). All of these things can and will negatively effect my paycheck and job security. If I can extend the life and reliability of that engine by taking VERY SIMPLE precautionary measures, I sure as Hell will.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

What part of that is so difficult to understand?

Moral obligations should always trump profit. If you hold information that could spare life or limb, it should be shared.

Oh wait, how silly of me. I forgot. We live in America. Money over morals.

 

[wjmiller3]

The numbers are a little fuzzy on the 22t because the past 8ish hrs were in the 20 that runs really hot (due to some mx problems). The 22t if I remember right is in the High 300's in the cruise and a complete reduction in power to idle will give me 340 in a couple minutes.
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How much time do you have in 22 turbos? I fly them for a living and if you were taught correctly you would know EXACTY what your max CHT is in cruise, and how you lean the mixture for cruise settings. The max CHT is 380 in cruise and if you approach that number you lean the mixture to cool off the CHT's. You were saying previously you run LOP and talked about people running ROP in the 22 turbo. If that is how you are running this airplane you are wrong again. You level out in cruise and reduce fuel flow to @17GPH, then based on CHT's, you lean some more to cool it off if you are approaching 380 on the CHT. That is how cruise setting is accomplish in a 22 turbo, not based on LOP or ROP. And for the people that diagree, this is how I was factory trained for CSIP training and I have the manuals to prove it. Nowhere in the 22 turbo training manuals does it suggest leaning based on peak. It is all based on CHT's, and that majic number is below 380. Now you go get in a non-turbo 22 and everything I just wrote goes out the window....

 

[jtrain609]

No, they stopped running them balls to the wall because they were more into the UPS/DHL whomever feeds, right? Other Amflight pilots on here have said they really have no deadlines. Keep to the schedule and mostly do out, sit, and backs, correct?

I know I was trained in the Chieftain to be gentle with the engines. Yes, we stage cooled them, and flew them like they had a purpose...to meet the jets. Trust me, do a 8 leg day out of PHL with 10 minute turns and you will do everything in your power, and by the way the company wants the airplane flown, to keep that deadline.

No deadlines for UPS/DHL? If you miss the big airplane back at the hub, you're kinda hosed eh? Kelvin has made that statement about CVG, which is all ad hoc and as he said, doesn't really have deadlines.

Burbank had deadlines, it was all bank runs.