Cirrus Pilots

As I have not attended CSIP or whatever it is called, can one of you cirrus instructors verify the information for leaning a straight -22 is correct...

1400 EGT to cruise, or below 65% Power....Now if this is true, how low below 65% power would you be using 1400 EGT before you advance to more a full mixture...


Cruise- I've just been using "lean assist" for 50 LOP or Best Economy which generally gives me a FF of 13.7-14.5 GPH depending on altitude....

Say I am cruising at 8 thousand feet, and descend to 4 thousand feet...If I maintain the same % power, and keep EGT's +/- 15 or so, can I continue to use my previously leaned setting, or should I re-lean for that altitude?

Sorry for the dumb questions but i've flown a lot more turbines than pistons over the past 24 months. :dunno:
 
I'm not a Cirrus guy, and I don't know much about your system.

But I I'm of the opinion that if you move one lever, you need to consider them all. So you change your power setting to descent? Relean.
 
As I have not attended CSIP or whatever it is called, can one of you cirrus instructors verify the information for leaning a straight -22 is correct...

I'm not a CSIP, and have no desire to be one...

But, I have about 360 hours in a straight 22.

I follow the climb fuel flow schedule. 24 gph at 4,000', 21 gph at 8,000, and so on. Some have scolded me for it, but I run 2600 RPM in the climb. I cringe at the thought of running full throttle for 15 minutes. If I see the CHTs creeping up toward 380, I'll cheat a little extra fuel flow and reduce the climb rate to try to keep it cool. I prefer 130 knot "cruise climb" until about 5-6000', then I'll climb at 120.

Level in cruise, I set 2500 RPM as long as the MP is squared or lower. Otherwise, I set 24ish" and take the random ass RPM it gives me, usually 2470 if I remember correctly. Our milk run has me at 8,000 on the way up and 7,000 on the way back. After the power is set, I'll use the lean assist to run either 65* ROP or 25* LOP. If I can get away with running 65% and run LOP and only have a few knot penalty, I'll do that. Often I'm very weight critical and can only carry enough fuel to get to destination and have my 45 minute reserve. Obviously, LOP is preferred in this situation, so I'll take 165 TAS at 65% and LOP vs 170ish at 75% and ROP.

I am still experimenting with mixture settings in the descent. Anything above 8,000 where I've been running LOP, I'll bring the throttle back to about 60% and enrichen the mixture to keep the EGTs as near as possible to the cruise numbers. Around 4-5000, I'll go to a ROP setting, shooting for a 1450 EGT, and keep working the throttle back to maintain the power at 60ish%. When you make the transition, this obviously causes a momentary jump in EGT until you get on the rich side of the curve.

I can typically keep the "Best Economy" message in tact through the first part of the descent, but eventually you'll get a FF Change or Power Change message in its place.

If anyone has suggestions or recommendations, or to tell me that I'm flat out wrong, please do.

PS, on today's flight, my #2 and #6 cylinder were the hottest CHTs; within 2 degrees of each other.
 
Well, I'll give you a few things to think about, how about that?

When you change what you're putting into the engine, you're going to have to make some readjustments. That goes for throttle setting, prop (depending on how spot on your governor is, which is obviously less of an issue for you in the Cirrus) and mixture. Basically if you change the amount of air going into the engine, either by say opening the throttle more, or simply introducing more air into the engine (non turbo, of course), you're going to have a new peak point, different amounts of power being generated, blah blah blah.

Now this didn't make a whole lot of sense to me until I had a student drown an engine at like 7,000' during a stall recovery. If we were going to go full power for the stall recovery, we had to move the props up, then mixtures up a third, then power up a third, then mixture up all the way, then throttles up all the way or you'd drown the engine in gas and it'd stop running.

Well, I had a trainee jam both mixtures up to the stops when he heard the horn and both engines started sputtering, like, I don't really think they were running so much as windmilling. As soon as I brought the mixtures back the engines came back alive. The same went for taxi, as we'd lean the engines until they were at their minimum manifold pressure (you had to move the mixtures up to actually taxi the airplane from a standstill or you wouldn't have enough gas in the gas/air mixture to power the engine up).

The moral of the story? If you move one lever, you probably have to move them all. I guess I look at it like this; if I were to cruise at 4,000', I'd have the mixtures in a completely different position than if I was cruising at 8,000', so I'll adjust them. Maybe I'll ball park them, but they'll get moved.

Just a few things to think about, and this is stuff I didn't think about until I had to control those big engines manually, which if you've flown a 210 you know all about.
 
That will keep air flowing over the outside of the engine, but you're not allowing it to take "big breaths" when you restrict the throttle valve.

FT Climbs are fantastic! (when you aren't otherwise restricted)

-mini
 
Nope. Book actually says to run full throttle in the climb. Why? I don't know.

Because you get 2700 RPM in a climb vs 2500 and you get 40 GPH vs 31 or whatever it is. You should read Deakins arguments on why its so critical to have full fuel flow on climbs. It will actually be better on the engine to run it at full power on climbs, vs a cruise setting in a climb.
 
Because you get 2700 RPM in a climb vs 2500 and you get 40 GPH vs 31 or whatever it is. You should read Deakins arguments on why its so critical to have full fuel flow on climbs. It will actually be better on the engine to run it at full power on climbs, vs a cruise setting in a climb.
The Deakins stuff is pretty good reading.

-mini
 
That will keep air flowing over the outside of the engine, but you're not allowing it to take "big breaths" when you restrict the throttle valve.

Isn't air flow directly proportionate to the power demand?

Because you get 2700 RPM in a climb vs 2500 and you get 40 GPH vs 31 or whatever it is. You should read Deakins arguments on why its so critical to have full fuel flow on climbs. It will actually be better on the engine to run it at full power on climbs, vs a cruise setting in a climb.

From Deakins himself:

"Climb power? Use the same power you used for takeoff (unless there is an explicit limitation). If you pulled the RPM back for less noise, you can leave it there, or run it back up to full redline RPM once noise is no longer a concern. The choice is yours. Or pick a smooth RPM in between, if there is one. Simplify your life, and just leave the throttle wide open."

I find the noise levels alone justify the RPM reduction. Unfortunately, with the Cirrus' single power lever, you can't have full control of both MP and RPM. If you adjust for one, you have to take what you get in the other.

Also, I'm flying a normally aspirated engine. Fuel flows are closer to 26 GPH at takeoff. I can also kick up the fuel flow to keep things cool.
 
Isn't air flow directly proportionate to the power demand?
Not sure I understand what you're asking.

From Deakins himself:

"Climb power? Use the same power you used for takeoff (unless there is an explicit limitation). If you pulled the RPM back for less noise, you can leave it there, or run it back up to full redline RPM once noise is no longer a concern. The choice is yours. Or pick a smooth RPM in between, if there is one. Simplify your life, and just leave the throttle wide open."

I find the noise levels alone justify the RPM reduction. Unfortunately, with the Cirrus' single power lever, you can't have full control of both MP and RPM. If you adjust for one, you have to take what you get in the other.
Which is the problem. You aren't just slowing the prop down. If the MP comes back with it, you're restricting the opening in the intake and restricting air coming in.

-mini
 
Which is the problem. You aren't just slowing the prop down. If the MP comes back with it, you're restricting the opening in the intake and restricting air coming in.

-mini

Ours turns 2660 at take off, so bringing it back 60 RPM only involves a movement of about an RCH (yes, that is a standard unit of measurement) on the power lever. If you didn't know I was doing it, you wouldn't be able to tell by looking at it that I had moved the power lever any. I'd say the drop in MP to accomplish this is no more than .2-.3" MP.

I flew a full power climb today and saw identical CHTs to what I saw yesterday when I pulled it back to 2600. Weather conditions were nearly identical with this stagnant frontal boundary hanging out in the area.
 
I flew a full power climb today and saw identical CHTs to what I saw yesterday when I pulled it back to 2600. Weather conditions were nearly identical with this stagnant frontal boundary hanging out in the area.
1) What was the difference in climb performance & fuel flows?

2) AMEN! Someone shove a damn front through already!

-mini
 
2700 RPM: 800 fpm
2600 RPM: 790 fpm

Those numbers are a wild guess since the difference is nearly negligible.

Same for fuel flow. Maybe a difference of .1-.2 gph
In that case, and I know noise abatement procedures and just noise for the pax can be a consideration, I'd probably follow the book procedure. If it says to leave it wide open (no limitation on takeoff power), I'd do that. If the book says there's a takeoff limitation, I'd do that.

-mini
 
In that case, and I know noise abatement procedures and just noise for the pax can be a consideration, I'd probably follow the book procedure. If it says to leave it wide open (no limitation on takeoff power), I'd do that. If the book says there's a takeoff limitation, I'd do that.

-mini

Agreed. I have been on the sidelines of this for the last few pages, but I decided to chime in over a cup of coffee this morning.

On some piston engines there's a Power Enrichment Valve which gives more fuel flow (more cooling) at WOT. It's not a function of MP, but of throttle position. There are also installations where at full throttle the boost pump is activated (again, not a matter of MP, but of the throttle being mashed in the panel), again, giving additional cooling. In those airplanes, you better believe there is a good reason to climb at full throttle.

On the IO-550s I flew for a living up until last month, such a device does not exist. However, I experimented with many different climb profiles during my time flying these aircraft and I determined that the most efficient way to climb is at WOT. WOT climbs result in better performance and cooler CHT in the climb. You get to altitude faster, which results in a lower noise signature, and you arrive at cruise with more energy, which results in less time spent accelerating, which, in turn means that you can set up a cruise power setting sooner. FWIW, I also flew planes with IO-360 and found the same results.

As far as noise abatement, if you're flying anything but a Cirrus, you can leave it at WOT and dial the prop back to 2600 or 2500 if you wish. In a Cirrus, you're kinda stuck. I would climb at WOT anyway. That airplane has the performance to get 1000fpm or better down low; I would WOT it and get up to altitude more quickly.

For those concerned about blowing up an engine, consider this: the IO-550 is rated up to 350hp in some applications. Pulling WOT with 310hp is not even approaching what the engine is capable of producing. In the installations I'm most familiar with (Mooney) we were only pulling 280hp in most applications (a handful were 310 conversions), which was even more comforting. All those models, even the turbonormalized Acclaim, are rated to run full hp 24/7/365 with no limitations.

Occasionally, I would run in to somebody who was afraid to go full throttle in one of my planes. "Think of it like a reduced power takeoff in a turbine - it helps them extend the life of the engine!" was the idea. However, this is not a turbine airplane; it's a piston airplane and needs to be operated with the proper technique and knowledge behind it to make it last a long time.

The IO-550 is a well-designed and tough engine if you operate it correctly. I have seen them with compressions in the 50s at 500 hours and I have seen them with compressions in the 70s with over 1000 hours. Fly it as it's meant to be flown and it will get you home.

edit: TF - I would say that if you're turning only 2660 on takeoff and climb that you need to get your SMPL adjusted. I would venture that your numbers are very close because your WOT numbers are lower than they should be. We used to see this pretty regularly. Sometimes governors need to be adjusted. If it's more than 20rpm off of book, I would take it in.
 
edit: TF - I would say that if you're turning only 2660 on takeoff and climb that you need to get your SMPL adjusted. I would venture that your numbers are very close because your WOT numbers are lower than they should be. We used to see this pretty regularly. Sometimes governors need to be adjusted. If it's more than 20rpm off of book, I would take it in.

I certainly plan on doing that. It has been 2660 since day one, so it never crossed my mind that something was out of whack. I'm going to first get them to shoot one of those digital RPM gauges at the prop before I have them adjust it.
 
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