Cirrus Pilots

[TFaudree_ERAU]

Who in the world uses 1" per thousand feet? That's what you lose as you climb eh? Anybody that is recommending that doesn't know their rear end from a hole in the ground, and it certainly isn't stage cooling. Heck if you lose 1" for every thousand feet you descend, you'll never actually reduce power because you'll gain that inch back as you come down another 1,000'.

Again, my point. Yet, I've heard it time and time again. 1" per 1000'. Its virtually impossible to achieve, but I hear it all the time.

Never heard 50 degrees every 5 minutes either, because it cools faster than that. If you're moving at 3 miles per minute, and you need 30 miles to go from cruise to the FAF (as far as your reductions in manifold pressure are concerned) then you're losing 150 degree's in 10 minutes, so about 15 degree's a minute.

I guess it wasn't 50 every 5. Whatever it was, I let it go in one ear and out the other, because it just takes a little common sense to know how to treat your engine. If I'm working for a company like Amflight, I'll certainly fly by their numbers, however.

 

[jtrain609]

However, you're describing EXACTLY what we did at Amflight.

So why are you still arguing?

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

So why are you still arguing?

I guess I was under the impression that we had two different viewpoints on what kind of technique leads to premature engine failure. I see now that that's not the case.

 

[USMCmech]

The only DATA from the engine manufacturers is the following:

"Avoid reducing CHTs more than 50 degrees per minute" from Lycoming. Contenitial says nothing at all about shock cooling.

In order to create that rapid of a temp change, you would have to run your engine in a manner well outside what any rational pilot would do. These things are made of aluminum and steel, two materials that tolerate thermal cycling VERY well.



I for one believe that much of the engine damage attributed to "shock cooling" is actually caused by running your engine too hot in the first place. The rate that it is cooled has a negligable effect compared to the damage that routinely heating it up over 400 does.

 

[t-cart]

t-cart.

How often did y'all have cylinders crack in ag operations when you're taking off and landing every 10 minutes? A lot of heating and cooling going on there.

Do tell

I probably cracked less than five cylinders during my time flying the 450 and 600. Got around 11,000 hrs in them. Lots of days getting 60 or more takeoff's and landings a day. I learned from an old timer who had countless hours in the radials and I think his operational "tips" helped me alot. The last one I had was in a 450 Ag Cat. When it cracked,the whole airplane shook a little but it kept running and didn't seem to miss a beat. I put the load out and shut it down back at the airstrip to find the whole barrel had seperated. Those old things are tough.

P.S. I certainly didn't baby the engines nor did I overly abuse them either.

 

[OldTownPilot]

http://cirrusaircraft.com/turbo/learn/turbotech.aspx

http://cirrusaircraft.com/turbo/learn/wearandtear.aspx

It is practically impossible to shock cool a SR22T.

Dude, you seriously trust that company with your life?

Oh wait, you have a chute.


There was one turbo in the service center here with THREE cracked jugs. Plus another came in with a cracked jug last week. Both had less than 1000 TT on the airframe.

 

[jhugz]

Dude, you seriously trust that company with your life?

Oh wait, you have a chute.


There was one turbo in the service center here with THREE cracked jugs. Plus another came in with a cracked jug last week. Both had less than 1000 TT on the airframe.

Dude, I am not at all saying I am an expert by any means but how many hours do you have in cirrus aircraft?

The numbers say it all. I am sure that the idiot probably wasn't running it lean of peak meaning hotter temps.

Why do you hate on the chute? It saves lives. Period

Do you trust lycoming on their numbers and operating limitations? If so then what is the difference.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

 

[OldTownPilot]

Dude, I am not at all saying I am an expert by any means but how many hours do you have in cirrus aircraft?

The numbers say it all. I am sure that the idiot probably wasn't running it lean of peak meaning hotter temps.

Why do you hate on the chute? It saves life. Period
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

Enough to know that you shouldn't say that's its practically impossible to shock cool a turbo based on some sales/marketing BS from them. The fact is pilots are told "not to worry about it" by the sales guys to sell the plane, when it is in fact an issue and people like you (and a TON of other pilots) fall for it. Plus a ton of work away from flying, working with the company that people that just fly and instruct in the planes never sees or is aware of.

He may not have been running LOP, I don't know, but then again "it's practically impossible to shock cool it" BTW, ROP is approved and numbers and procedures are published for it.

That effing chute has probably killed more pilots than it has 'really saved'. (The dude in GAI that had his door pop isn't one of them.)

 

[jhugz]

That effing chute has probably killed more pilots than it has 'really saved'. (The dude in GAI that had his door pop isn't one of them.)

ROP is approved but maybe he was running at peak.

Cirrus not only markets this but so does tornado alley just like how lycoming markets their engines. It is proven by the numbers they run at cooler temps.

http://www.cirruspilots.org/content/SafetyHowSafeIsACirrus.aspx

Know what you are talking about before you open your mouth please and back it up with hard proof.

Pulling the chute below 500 AGL and past chute deployment speeds kill pilots.

Poor ADM kills pilots not the actual deployments.

<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden"><input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

 

[OldTownPilot]

And how much of that poor ADM is caused by that chute and the shady marketing? How many of those people would never do what they did in the cirrus, is a comparable airplane like a 210 or a Columbia?

Nobody will ever have hard facts because they are dead, and you know that, so why do you ask? Plus thats why I said "probably killed" anyways.

 

[wjmiller3]

And how much of that poor ADM is caused by that chute and the shady marketing? How many of those people would never do what they did in the cirrus, is a comparable airplane like a 210 or a Columbia?

Nobody will ever have hard facts because they are dead, and you know that, so why do you ask? Plus thats why I said "probably killed" anyways.

What shady marketing?

 

[jhugz]

And how much of that poor ADM is caused by that chute and the shady marketing? How many of those people would never do what they did in the cirrus, is a comparable airplane like a 210 or a Columbia?

Nobody will ever have hard facts because they are dead, and you know that, so why do you ask? Plus thats why I said "probably killed" anyways.

How much time do you have in type again?
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

 

[jhugz]

How much time do you have in type again?
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

?

<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

 

[jtrain609]

How much time do you have in type again?
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

When you have 500 TT, it's probably not the best time in your career to be pulling the "how much time do you have X type" game.

 

[trafficinsight]

I have 0 hours in the Cirrus and I can say without reservation that it eats babies and runs on the blood of Catholic Nuns.


Don't even get me started on how they make the chute.

 

[jtrain609]

Ok so I was doing some looking on the Tornado Alley website, and it said that you should be able to operate with CHT's below 380 degree's.

That's still in the range that we operated our TIO-540's at.

jhugz, since you operate the aircraft so often, what CHT ranges are you seeing and how quickly do you generally find they cool? You've gotta have digital readouts so you should be able to provide some very exact numbers eh? And you'd know these off the top of your head, because you obviously pay very close attention eh?

A 540-550 cubic inch engine is a 540-550 cubic inch engine. It says that it runs at lower MP's than normal, but we'd operate at 26" during cruise, which is probably pretty similiar to what you're seeing, so everybodies numbers should come out the same.

 

[jhugz]

When you have 500 TT, it's probably not the best time in your career to be pulling the "how much time do you have X type" game.

If I start pulling safety factors out my rear-end on the navajo wouldn't you call me out on it? I am not saying I am an expert by any means in fact I am way on the other end of the spectrum but I am tired of people saying stuff that is totally contradictory to the facts and I am pretty sure that this stuff is from hangar talk with no truth behind it. So again I ask how much time does he have in type because if he is saying these things I am guessing 0.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

 

[jtrain609]

He's got Cirrus time bro.

So, those numbers?

 

[jhugz]

He's got Cirrus time bro.

So, those numbers?

The numbers are a little fuzzy on the 22t because the past 8ish hrs were in the 20 that runs really hot (due to some mx problems). The 22t if I remember right is in the High 300's in the cruise and a complete reduction in power to idle will give me 340 in a couple minutes.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

 

[jtrain609]

The numbers are a little fuzzy on the 22t because the past 8ish hrs were in the 20 that runs really hot (due to some mx problems). The 22t if I remember right is in the High 300's in the cruise and a complete reduction in power to idle will give me 340 in a couple minutes.
<input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">

Fuzzy? Bro this is the health of your engine, and you've only got one. This is one of those things that isn't generally hammered into people as something to monitor, and if you want to be a professional, a real guru with this airplane, you need to know these numbers, what the normal values should be and how to get them.

So you're saying that you go from the high 300's in cruise to completely idle and they get down to 340...in a few minutes? Have you really gone to idle power with your CHT's that high? Don't believe the hype that they're sellin' ya bro, because if you're really going to idle power with that high of a CHT, on an engine that big, you're gonna hurt something eventually.

Take it from Justin, he grew up in a hangar, has Cirrus time, has an engineering degree and is most likely smarter than both of us put together, doing that will blow up the engine.

Even when we did stall recoveries with nearly the same engine, we'd stage cool prior to doing so, so we had our engine in that CHT zone where we could add or take away power without doing TOO MUCH damage, and then we were fairly ginger with it.