C-172 Q

jetman

New Member
Hi guys
From the POH
Balked landing
1 Throttle full power
2Carb heat off
3Flaps 20 [immediately]
4Climb 55KIAS
5 Flaps 10[untill obstacles are clear]
Retract after safe altitude and 60 KIAS
At what point the flaps go from 20 to 10?

Tnx for help
 

Alchemy

Well-Known Member
Flaps 20 immediatly, flaps 10 at positive rate and Vx, flaps up at Vy. At least that's how I'd do it.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
When would you do it when recovering from a full flap power off stall? Or when returning from full flap slow flight to normal cruise?
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
When would you do it when recovering from a full flap power off stall? Or when returning from full flap slow flight to normal cruise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Would do it the same way.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Would do it the same way.

[/ QUOTE ] The question was for the original poster. Too many of us are taught these maneuvers as though they were independent activities rather than being variations of the same theme.

How many pilots can't figure out how to set up for slow flight even though they do the exact same thing every time they set up for their descent in the pattern?
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would do it the same way.

[/ QUOTE ] The question was for the original poster. Too many of us are taught these maneuvers as though they were independent activities rather than being variations of the same theme.

How many pilots can't figure out how to set up for slow flight even though they do the exact same thing every time they set up for their descent in the pattern?

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I allowed to participate?
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
Am I allowed to participate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely!

I think the recovery that I taught involved full power, stopping the descent rate and selecting flaps 20, then 10, then slowly retracting flaps 10 as the aircraft builds more energy.

Usually that stall is going to happen in a position where you're slow and low and I taught my students to not get mired (sp?) into procedure, but to do what it takes to get the aircraft climbing away from the terrain and recapture speed and altitude.
 

PhotoPilot

New Member
Though I'm certainly not at the CFI level yet, isn't the problem that pilots rely on checklists and proceedures (which can certainly be a good thing, too) rather than understanding the reactions of the plane to various control inputs? Instead of understanding that 'pitch + power = performance' we get in the habit of chasing certain numbers and checklist items without understanding the reasoning behind those items?
 

C650CPT

Well-Known Member
Ahh little grasshopper ...
you now understand the 4 levels of learning
Route
Understanding
Application
Correlation
See you're going to make a good flight instructor
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
Though I'm certainly not at the CFI level yet, isn't the problem that pilots rely on checklists and proceedures (which can certainly be a good thing, too) rather than understanding the reactions of the plane to various control inputs? Instead of understanding that 'pitch + power = performance' we get in the habit of chasing certain numbers and checklist items without understanding the reasoning behind those items?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pilots should be taught both. Generally, with mil, you'll see the new student initially engrossed with rote procedures, with the "why's" being enhaced through the training experience.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
Though I'm certainly not at the CFI level yet, isn't the problem that pilots rely on checklists and proceedures (which can certainly be a good thing, too) rather than understanding the reactions of the plane to various control inputs? Instead of understanding that 'pitch + power = performance' we get in the habit of chasing certain numbers and checklist items without understanding the reasoning behind those items?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes young Padawan, a strong Jedi you will become!

That was the BIGGEST habit to break after I left Riddle.

Instead of using target pitches and target power settings (which only work in a controlled, generic environment), I had to learn to put the power right where it should be to get the desired performance out of the engine and put the nose where it needed to be to get the plane to do what I wanted to do.

More of the "Flying Cave Man" approach, but that'll work in any airplane.
 

SUSPilot

Well-Known Member
Like everyone is saying, the first thing you want to do in a go-around is get the plane. To do this obviously you need to add power. Then you can worry about cleaning up the flaps. A saying I was taught back when I was a primary student was Cram it, Clean it, Call it. To go around you need power so that is the first thing you worry about Add power, Prop if not already at takeoff pitch(If its a plane with a constant speed propeller, Carb heat in. Next you need the plane set for climb. Using my arrow as an example Flaps go to 15, Positive rate the Gear come up, and when the climb is stabalized the last flaps. After a climb is established, I will call the go around or the missed approach. The thing to remember is to fly the airplane first, then you can worry about everything else such as configuration changes and radio calls.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
. A saying I was taught back when I was a primary student was Cram it, Clean it, Call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still use the "4 Cs" for my go-around/missed:

Climb
Cram
Clean
Communicate

Add a 5th "C" for Cool for cowl-flap equipped aircraft prior to Communicate if flying such-equipped aircraft.
 

SUSPilot

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
. A saying I was taught back when I was a primary student was Cram it, Clean it, Call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still use the "4 Cs" for my go-around/missed:

Climb
Cram
Clean
Communicate

Add a 5th "C" for Cool for cowl-flap equipped aircraft prior to Communicate if flying such-equipped aircraft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically what I was taught, but with a new student there first intinct for climb is going to be to pitch the nose up. It needs to be made clear to them that power must be added first(power for altitude in slow flight) before any pitch change or they will find themselves behind the power curve very quickly and low and slow that could really ruin your day not to mention the airplane.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
. A saying I was taught back when I was a primary student was Cram it, Clean it, Call it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still use the "4 Cs" for my go-around/missed:

Climb
Cram
Clean
Communicate

Add a 5th "C" for Cool for cowl-flap equipped aircraft prior to Communicate if flying such-equipped aircraft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically what I was taught, but with a new student there first intinct for climb is going to be to pitch the nose up. It needs to be made clear to them that power must be added first(power for altitude in slow flight) before any pitch change or they will find themselves behind the power curve very quickly and low and slow that could really ruin your day not to mention the airplane.

[/ QUOTE ]

What needs to be taught also is that these are the items that need to be accomplished; and then be taught what can be done simultaneously and how/why as opposed to giving the student that it's a "this then this then this...." concept.
 

Kristie

Mama Bear....
Staff member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would do it the same way.

[/ QUOTE ] The question was for the original poster. Too many of us are taught these maneuvers as though they were independent activities rather than being variations of the same theme.

How many pilots can't figure out how to set up for slow flight even though they do the exact same thing every time they set up for their descent in the pattern?

[/ QUOTE ]Just a suggestion, so people don't get confused...maybe when your addressing a post to a specific individual - put that username above, so they understand your response/question is for that person?! ko?!
 

jetman

New Member
Thank you all for input/////

I understand that the procedure is irrelevant if the goal ,climbing to a safe altitude,is not acheived .

56 KIAS and 10 flaps gives the better climbing performance so why not go from 30 to 10 instead considering that the difference in stalling speed between 20 and 10 flaps may be 2 knots?
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Am I allowed to participate?

[/ QUOTE ]Of course. I think you misunderstand the intent of my post.

The question was, "when do I move the flaps from 20 to 10 on a go-around?"

My answer was (supposed to be) rhetorical, based on the assumption that the questioner had done stalls and slow flight in the same airplane. Rather than provide =the answer=, it was intended to get the questioner to make the connection between what he had already learned and what he was trying to learn now. Something you obviously already know.

Guess it's difficult to be subtle online, huh?
 

SUSPilot

Well-Known Member
I completly agree with you that they should be done simultaneously Mike, but while the student is still at the rote level of learning you need to get a basic procedure down that they will understand, and then they will work into the point that they realize it really isn't a step by step process but it is one action. The same type of thing occurs with the pitch for airspeed, power for altitude. Works great to get a student the understanding that when they are low and slow they cannot just pitch up to climb. In practice though, it is a combination of both pitch and power that makes you change airspeed or altitude.
 
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