TWP
Well-Known Member
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
No, you are not the only one. I've noticed this as well.
No, you are not the only one. I've noticed this as well.
Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point.
- Thread starter beasly
- Start date
RDoug
Well-Known Member
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
And with that I believe I'm going to bow out of any further discussion here. We're not going to change any minds, and we're all starting to talk past one another. When that happens, it's only a matter of time before things start getting personal.
Anyone wanting to continue can PM me and we'll take it off-line.
And with that I believe I'm going to bow out of any further discussion here. We're not going to change any minds, and we're all starting to talk past one another. When that happens, it's only a matter of time before things start getting personal.
Anyone wanting to continue can PM me and we'll take it off-line.
pullup
Homewrecker
How is this relevant?
beasly
Well-Known Member
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
I know the feeling, man.
Thanks for keeping it civil.
I know the feeling, man.
Thanks for keeping it civil.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
Your facts are wrong on both counts. Corporations far eclipse union spending on political contributions. Furthermore, it is illegal for unions to use dues dollars for political contributions, and strict reporting requirements have to be adhered to by all unions. I contribute several hundred dollars a year to ALPA PAC, because ALPA can't use my dues money for political candidates. It's well worth it, as far as I'm concerned.
In case you've missed it, there is a blatant anti-union campaign going on across this country right now. The right wing has focused on this issue, and Boeing sees an opportunity to join in the mix and get support for the Republicans in congress. In essence, they are blatantly violating the law and they know it, but they firmly believe that they can get away with it, and they're probably right. Just another example of why corporations should not be worshiped by people as they are by the political right.
Unions are non-profit organizations.
Moving the plant to SC and claiming that it was as a result of the 2008 strike is unlawful in and of itself. The law prohibits companies (or unions) from taking actions after a work action has concluded that is intended to retaliate. For example, a union could not engage in a slow down after a strike is settled with a new contract in order to punish the company for the strike. By the same token, a company is prohibited from laying off employees, for example, in retaliation for a strike. Boeing's actions are blatantly illegal. It's not even really in dispute. They just think that they can get away with it.
Your facts are wrong on both counts. Corporations far eclipse union spending on political contributions. Furthermore, it is illegal for unions to use dues dollars for political contributions, and strict reporting requirements have to be adhered to by all unions. I contribute several hundred dollars a year to ALPA PAC, because ALPA can't use my dues money for political candidates. It's well worth it, as far as I'm concerned.
In case you've missed it, there is a blatant anti-union campaign going on across this country right now. The right wing has focused on this issue, and Boeing sees an opportunity to join in the mix and get support for the Republicans in congress. In essence, they are blatantly violating the law and they know it, but they firmly believe that they can get away with it, and they're probably right. Just another example of why corporations should not be worshiped by people as they are by the political right.
Unions are non-profit organizations.
Moving the plant to SC and claiming that it was as a result of the 2008 strike is unlawful in and of itself. The law prohibits companies (or unions) from taking actions after a work action has concluded that is intended to retaliate. For example, a union could not engage in a slow down after a strike is settled with a new contract in order to punish the company for the strike. By the same token, a company is prohibited from laying off employees, for example, in retaliation for a strike. Boeing's actions are blatantly illegal. It's not even really in dispute. They just think that they can get away with it.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
I don't think anyone worships corporations. However, we realize that the corporations are the reason workers have jobs to organize for in the first place. Don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg, know what I mean?
Again, balance.
I'm aware of what they call themselves.
I don't think anyone worships corporations. However, we realize that the corporations are the reason workers have jobs to organize for in the first place. Don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg, know what I mean?
Again, balance.
I'm aware of what they call themselves.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I'm aware of what they call themselves.
Are you aware of what the dictionary calls profit?
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SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
Ahh, perfect opportunity to drag out one of my favorite quotes of all time. From the great Captain Rick Dubinsky, former Chairman of the United Master Executive Council:
"We don't want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg."
If we're making a profit, I'd love for you to show me where it is. As a member of the governing body responsible for the Association's finances, I can assure you that it's not as you think it is.
Ahh, perfect opportunity to drag out one of my favorite quotes of all time.
From the great Captain Rick Dubinsky, former Chairman of the United Master Executive Council:"We don't want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg."
I'm aware of what they call themselves.
If we're making a profit, I'd love for you to show me where it is. As a member of the governing body responsible for the Association's finances, I can assure you that it's not as you think it is.
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
Ah, Dubinsky. That worked out well for United pilots, didn't it? He's now a Teamster working on our new contract, and frankly, that makes a number of us nervous. Thankfully, I think most of us believe in balance; we're looking forward to a new contract with significant improvements, but we don't believe in bankrupting the company in the process of doing so. We realize that stifling the company's ability to grow and make money will only hurt us in the end.
Actually, I'm more than aware that ALPA has been losing money since at least 2008 (the last year I seem to be able to pull up records for). I'll admit, I was actually somewhat fishing for a response to that. Profit isn't a bad thing; if ALPA wants to make a profit to ensure it'll exist in the long run, go for it (they sure wanted my money after my furlough!). I notice that many union leaders seem to act as if profit is a bad thing (you should see some of the union communications from our EXCO!), but forget that a profitable company is what will give us the most stable working environment in the long term.
I'll go back to my original point: Balance. Go scorched-earth a la Dubinsky, it'll bite everyone in the long term. Allow management to completely walk all over labor, and the company will soon become a ghost town without a workforce. There needs to be a middle ground that will ensure positive improvements for labor, as well as the opportunity for profit and growth for the company.
Ahh, perfect opportunity to drag out one of my favorite quotes of all time.
"We don't want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg."
Ah, Dubinsky. That worked out well for United pilots, didn't it? He's now a Teamster working on our new contract, and frankly, that makes a number of us nervous. Thankfully, I think most of us believe in balance; we're looking forward to a new contract with significant improvements, but we don't believe in bankrupting the company in the process of doing so. We realize that stifling the company's ability to grow and make money will only hurt us in the end.
Actually, I'm more than aware that ALPA has been losing money since at least 2008 (the last year I seem to be able to pull up records for). I'll admit, I was actually somewhat fishing for a response to that.
Profit isn't a bad thing; if ALPA wants to make a profit to ensure it'll exist in the long run, go for it (they sure wanted my money after my furlough!). I notice that many union leaders seem to act as if profit is a bad thing (you should see some of the union communications from our EXCO!), but forget that a profitable company is what will give us the most stable working environment in the long term.I'll go back to my original point: Balance. Go scorched-earth a la Dubinsky, it'll bite everyone in the long term. Allow management to completely walk all over labor, and the company will soon become a ghost town without a workforce. There needs to be a middle ground that will ensure positive improvements for labor, as well as the opportunity for profit and growth for the company.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
Let's be fair, here; the UAL CBA is not what hurt United. A poorly managed company is what hurt United. If they never even got a new contract, United still would have been deep in the red and in bankruptcy court. The CBA just added a little bit more to the red ink. But when it was signed, UAL was bringing in ridiculous amounts of profit.
And it should. As much as I love his quote, he wasn't a great MEC Chairman at all. Despite just being a jerk, he was also the architect of the ESOP at UAL which ended up being completely worthless after the bankruptcy. I would be very cautious of any advice that he provides. The IBT needs to get real professional negotiators instead of people like Dubinsky.
Actually, we aren't anymore. It's leveled off, and there will be a surplus going forward (non-profits don't have profits or losses, they have deficits or surpluses).
I agree with all of that, but so do all semi-intelligent union leaders. The radicals are the ones who disagree, and it's important to keep them out of office, if at all possible. There certainly has to be a balance.
Let's be fair, here; the UAL CBA is not what hurt United. A poorly managed company is what hurt United. If they never even got a new contract, United still would have been deep in the red and in bankruptcy court. The CBA just added a little bit more to the red ink. But when it was signed, UAL was bringing in ridiculous amounts of profit.
And it should. As much as I love his quote, he wasn't a great MEC Chairman at all. Despite just being a jerk, he was also the architect of the ESOP at UAL which ended up being completely worthless after the bankruptcy. I would be very cautious of any advice that he provides. The IBT needs to get real professional negotiators instead of people like Dubinsky.
Actually, I'm more than aware that ALPA has been losing money since at least 2008 (the last year I seem to be able to pull up records for). I'll admit, I was actually somewhat fishing for a response to that.
Actually, we aren't anymore. It's leveled off, and there will be a surplus going forward (non-profits don't have profits or losses, they have deficits or surpluses).
I agree with all of that, but so do all semi-intelligent union leaders. The radicals are the ones who disagree, and it's important to keep them out of office, if at all possible. There certainly has to be a balance.
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
Sure. All of my whitty quips are public domain!
Sure. All of my whitty quips are public domain!
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
In 2009, the average salary for an American worker was 41K+. That falls squarely in to the 25% bracket. Now granted, there are deductions and exemptions, and whatnot, and I concede that your 28% figure is probably closer to the mark, but that is still way too much. Almost 1/3rd of a worker's income going to the government as some form of tax? It's no wonder things are getting tougher and tougher for the middle class. And the thing that just stuns me is that you are apparently ok it. If your employer reduced your pay 28% you'd raise holy hell. You're government takes 28% of it, and your fine with it? WTF?
In 2009, the average salary for an American worker was 41K+. That falls squarely in to the 25% bracket. Now granted, there are deductions and exemptions, and whatnot, and I concede that your 28% figure is probably closer to the mark, but that is still way too much. Almost 1/3rd of a worker's income going to the government as some form of tax? It's no wonder things are getting tougher and tougher for the middle class. And the thing that just stuns me is that you are apparently ok it. If your employer reduced your pay 28% you'd raise holy hell. You're government takes 28% of it, and your fine with it? WTF?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
America has some of the lowest tax rates in the world, and our current rates are the lowest in our own country's history. Stop your whining.
America has some of the lowest tax rates in the world, and our current rates are the lowest in our own country's history. Stop your whining.
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
Unbelievable. 1/4th to 1/3rd of your income going to a government that has time and again shown itself incapable of acting responsibly with it, hence the 14 trillion dollar debt, and you're just fine with that.
Unbelievable. 1/4th to 1/3rd of your income going to a government that has time and again shown itself incapable of acting responsibly with it, hence the 14 trillion dollar debt, and you're just fine with that.
Mach.12
Well-Known Member
Re: Boeing opens S.C plant . flips NLRB an exclamation point
Is that really a standard we want to shoot for? Being on par with the rest of the world?
Also, though personal income tax is relatively low, how does America stack up again the rest of the industrialized world in corporate taxes? My understanding is its pretty high. As a result, cost of goods is higher and therefore, pass through tax increase.
As for Boeing moving. I think it would behoove the union folks to remember that one man's unfair labor practices are another man's opportunity of a lifetime, which is why there is such intense pressure for companies to move offshore.
Is that really a standard we want to shoot for? Being on par with the rest of the world?
Also, though personal income tax is relatively low, how does America stack up again the rest of the industrialized world in corporate taxes? My understanding is its pretty high. As a result, cost of goods is higher and therefore, pass through tax increase.
As for Boeing moving. I think it would behoove the union folks to remember that one man's unfair labor practices are another man's opportunity of a lifetime, which is why there is such intense pressure for companies to move offshore.