B737 Talk

[inigo88]

The MD-11 Dial-a-flap gets used on every flight.

By “An obscure Dial-A-Flap setting”, I didn’t mean using Dial-A-Flap on takeoff. I meant if you guys use 15.0 degrees at most airports, but then you have one field that you rarely go to that requires 18.7 degrees on takeoff for some reason. Or are they frequently different based on the specific airport and runway configuration? Sorry I don’t know the actual MD-11 flap settings.

 

[flyinggreasemnky]

By “An obscure Dial-A-Flap setting”, I didn’t mean using Dial-A-Flap on takeoff. I meant if you guys use 15.0 degrees at most airports, but then you have one field that you rarely go to that requires 18.7 degrees on takeoff for some reason. Or are they frequently different based on the specific airport and runway configuration? Sorry I don’t know the actual MD-11 flap settings.

Takeoffs in the 11 are generally flaps 10 so the after takeoff flow requires you to dial it to 15 so it will be ready for your approach. Its not uncommon depending on weight, atmospheric conditions, runway length or contamination to have to dial it somewhere between 10 and 25 degrees. It happens taking off in Memphis especially when using 18L. and even 18C when heading over the pond.

 

[///AMG]

So after a grand total of roughly 50 hrs or so, I have come to the following conclusions.....

If you are high and above 10k, dump the nose (if you can) and accelerate, maybe even with the speedbrakes out. If you aren’t, get the gear out (within reason), open the window and slow and get at least flaps 10 out, then resume the space shuttle. Of course SEA final is going to F with you and keep you at 170-190 until 5 miles, but F10 still works there.

Does that sound correct?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

So after a grand total of roughly 50 hrs or so, I have come to the following conclusions.....

If you are high and above 10k, dump the nose (if you can) and accelerate, maybe even with the speedbrakes out. If you aren’t, get the gear out (within reason), open the window and slow and get at least flaps 10 out, then resume the space shuttle. Of course SEA final is going to F with you and keep you at 170-190 until 5 miles, but F10 still works there.

Does that sound correct?

Which model are we talking about? The -700 you get full leading edge devices at flaps 10. In the -800 not until flaps 25. Regardless, (and to my employers great chagrin) flaps 1 and speedbrakes or gear dramatically increases rate of descent and solves a lot of problems.

 

[MikeD]

Speedbrakes in the air are a waste of time on the 737. They do little more than shake the airframe. If ATC restrictions or instructions precluded you from entering a leisurely flap schedule, then yeah landing gear is your best drag device depending on how close to the field you are and high you’ve been left, so long as you don’t have intermediate level offs to have to do. Ie- Don’t want to drop the gear for drag so far out that you have to carry a ton of power to maintain an altitude while dirty, and bringing up the gear again is crappy form.

or, you could unlock the mystery of Flaps 2…….the big door no one wants to look into.

 

[Roger Roger]

So after a grand total of roughly 50 hrs or so, I have come to the following conclusions.....

If you are high and above 10k, dump the nose (if you can) and accelerate, maybe even with the speedbrakes out. If you aren’t, get the gear out (within reason), open the window and slow and get at least flaps 10 out, then resume the space shuttle. Of course SEA final is going to F with you and keep you at 170-190 until 5 miles, but F10 still works there.

Does that sound correct?

That kinda sounds like any pax jet? Or maybe not but it sounds like both of the ones I’ve flown.

 

[Minuteman]

Exclusive: Boeing doesn't expect MAX 10 to gain FAA approval before summer 2023

Boeing Co does not anticipate winning approval for the 737 MAX 10 before next summer, according to a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) letter sent on Monday that intensifies concerns about the company's timeline for deliveries.

www.reuters.com

“Boeing Co does not anticipate winning approval for the 737 MAX 10 before next summer, according to a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) letter sent on Monday that intensifies concerns about the company's timeline for deliveries.

Boeing faces a December deadline to win regulatory approval for the MAX 10... Unless it gains an extension from Congress, Boeing must meet new modern cockpit-alerting requirements that could significantly delay the planes' entry into service.

The new cockpit alerting requirements are part of certification reform legislation that was passed in 2020 after two 737 MAX crashes killed 346 people and led to a 20-month grounding for the best-selling plane.

In a Sept. 19 letter to Boeing made public last week, the FAA expressed concerns that the plane maker would not be able to win certification for the MAX 7 this year. Boeing must get approval for the MAX 7 first as the MAX 10 approval is contingent on some MAX 7 documentation, Boeing Chief Executive Dave Calhoun said last month.

The letter added Boeing has not completed all its required assessments and needed to turn in remaining documents by mid-September if it intended to meet the December deadline.”

Also.

“Boeing, which has argued that it is safer to have one common cockpit alerting system for all versions of the 737, said on Friday that it "is focused on meeting all regulatory requirements to certify the 737-7 and 737-10.”

“We gambled that we could keep riding this tired old horse and hope you accept our sunk-cost fallacy.” I assume is something they also said.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Which model are we talking about? The -700 you get full leading edge devices at flaps 10. In the -800 not until flaps 25. Regardless, (and to my employers great chagrin) flaps 1 and speedbrakes or gear dramatically increases rate of descent and solves a lot of problems.

It’s “beyond” 10 and “beyond” 25.


On the -800 only if you have the SFP package (short field performance) for full leading edge devices beyond flaps 25.

We have some (original) -800 that are not SFP and therefore full LEDs beyond flaps 10.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Exclusive: Boeing doesn't expect MAX 10 to gain FAA approval before summer 2023

Boeing Co does not anticipate winning approval for the 737 MAX 10 before next summer, according to a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) letter sent on Monday that intensifies concerns about the company's timeline for deliveries.

www.reuters.com

“Boeing Co does not anticipate winning approval for the 737 MAX 10 before next summer, according to a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) letter sent on Monday that intensifies concerns about the company's timeline for deliveries.

Boeing faces a December deadline to win regulatory approval for the MAX 10... Unless it gains an extension from Congress, Boeing must meet new modern cockpit-alerting requirements that could significantly delay the planes' entry into service.

The new cockpit alerting requirements are part of certification reform legislation that was passed in 2020 after two 737 MAX crashes killed 346 people and led to a 20-month grounding for the best-selling plane.

In a Sept. 19 letter to Boeing made public last week, the FAA expressed concerns that the plane maker would not be able to win certification for the MAX 7 this year. Boeing must get approval for the MAX 7 first as the MAX 10 approval is contingent on some MAX 7 documentation, Boeing Chief Executive Dave Calhoun said last month.

The letter added Boeing has not completed all its required assessments and needed to turn in remaining documents by mid-September if it intended to meet the December deadline.”

Also.

“Boeing, which has argued that it is safer to have one common cockpit alerting system for all versions of the 737, said on Friday that it "is focused on meeting all regulatory requirements to certify the 737-7 and 737-10.”

“We gambled that we could keep riding this tired old horse and hope you accept our sunk-cost fallacy.” I assume is something they also said.

I absolutely agree with them. I’ve flown the NG and MAX and if we do get MAX 10s, I’d rather the system for alerting me be the same throughout the 737 variants I fly. I don’t want to switch from the annunciator recall panel in one plane, to an Airbus style EICAS, and then back to annunciator recall the next plane.

When SHTF, I want one uniform standard for system alerting. Not a good idea to be switching back n forth. On that, I agree with Boeing.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Speedbrakes in the air are a waste of time on the 737. They do little more than shake the airframe. If ATC restrictions or instructions precluded you from entering a leisurely flap schedule, then yeah landing gear is your best drag device depending on how close to the field you are and high you’ve been left, so long as you don’t have intermediate level offs to have to do. Ie- Don’t want to drop the gear for drag so far out that you have to carry a ton of power to maintain an altitude while dirty, and bringing up the gear again is crappy form.

or, you could unlock the mystery of Flaps 2…….the big door no one wants to look into.

Flaps 2 not allowed at our shop.

Honestly for the NGs the speed brakes are fine for descent from the flight levels down to the terminal area. Once you’re in the terminal area, then I only use speed brakes (if I have to) to get the speed to an acceptable range and then do flaps 1 and 5, and stow the brakes. Yeah you can deploy them up to 250 knots. But I prefer 225kts or slower, and then get flaps 1 out.

SEA? Which is probably half or more of your AS career, you never really need speed brakes. It’s gonna be a long ass final. If you’re landing the 34s and coming in any of the arrivals, once you’ve vacated the lowest altitude on the STAR (say 12,000) then level change yourself down to whatever lower altitude they give. You need to get down. Guys get high when they start trying to get cute and do VS down 1.0

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

On the MAX, the speed brakes are less effective but if you do use them, bring them out *slowly* and stow them *slowly.* I don't get people that just yank them out or yank them back. I make it a smooth process, something like a full 10-15 seconds to deploy or stow. I literally move like a snails pace. If you yank them (especially on a MAX), everyone will feel the oof.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

It’s “beyond” 10 and “beyond” 25.

On the -800 only if you have the SFP package (short field performance) for full leading edge devices beyond flaps 25.

That didn’t sound right, so I looked it up. Turns out we were both partially right, but it may be because we have the short field package.

Its beyond 5 in the 700 and (as you correctly stated) beyond 25 in the 800.

Bottom line is it’s tougher to get the 800 to slow down and go down at the same time in any configuration save for gear down, whereas flaps 10 in the 700 really improves its ability to do the same.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

In the DC9 years ago “slats and 5” was a common call that worked well to turn the airplane into the aerodynamic equivalent of a telephone booth.

The guppy isn’t much different. My company really pushes the “flaps are lift devices, not drag devices” narrative - and I agree ... with the caveat that we are aviators. We learn which configurations will result in that maximum rate of descent - not saying we are aeronautical engineers but rather experienced operators that have tried all combinations to achieve the desired performance.

I don’t mind dropping the gear but, like MikeD said, I feel like a failure when I need to retract it again.

I wish they would leave us the latitude to do just that and instead say something like “try to extend flaps approaching the minimum maneuvering airspeed for the current configuration. Avoid flap extension near limit speeds” or something to that effect.

To paraphrase Joe Patroni, “that’s one nice thing about the 737. She can do everything but read.”

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Oh sorry, I forgot you guys have a very large amount of -700s. Yes, that's correct. We have (I think) 14 of the -700s. The bulk of ours are -800, -900, and MAX9 so far, and those are the ones with mostly SFP packages.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I don't find myself having any issues slowing/configuring. The key answer is the same one we had on the A320: to be 2,000 AGL and at second notch of flaps and 180 kts. Then at 2,000 AGL when you're at flaps 5 and 180, throw gear down and flaps 15 (or in the Bus, gear down and flaps 3). Do that, and you'll be gear down, landing flaps, and on speed at 1,000 AGL.


So the only key thing to figure out is where/how long is that point where I'll be 2,000 AGL from the runway and pointing directly at it? Once you know that, the only challenge is managing your speed from 250 kts to 180 kts and extending flaps 1 and 5 in the process.

Once I broke a flight down like that mentally, I've never had an issue configuring.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I don't find myself having any issues slowing/configuring. The key answer is the same one we had on the A320: to be 2,000 AGL and at second notch of flaps and 180 kts. Then at 2,000 AGL when you're at flaps 5 and 180, throw gear down and flaps 15 (or in the Bus, gear down and flaps 3). Do that, and you'll be gear down, landing flaps, and on speed at 1,000 AGL.


So the only key thing to figure out is where/how long is that point where I'll be 2,000 AGL from the runway and pointing directly at it? Once you know that, the only challenge is managing your speed from 250 kts to 180 kts and extending flaps 1 and 5 in the process.

Once I broke a flight down like that mentally, I've never had an issue configuring.

I agree not an issue with an ordinary vector to final. I’m thinking situations like the downwind in Atlanta, where they keep you high and you have to lose 8000 feet before they’ll let you turn base. But if you drop the gear, you’ll end up dragging it for 20 miles by the time they turn you back towards the airport.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I agree not an issue with an ordinary vector to final. I’m thinking situations like the downwind in Atlanta, where they keep you high and you have to lose 8000 feet before they’ll let you turn base. But if you drop the gear, you’ll end up dragging it for 20 miles by the time they turn you back towards the airport.

Cases like that, I have TCAS on Below and see where planes are turning in for their base leg. And their "you're 5 miles from DGLAS, turn right heading blah maintain blah cleared for the ILS..." Now I can see and hear where people are getting turned in, just my techniques. For Seattle landing to the south when you're coming in the from the north or east, these techniques work out great. 210 kts and flaps 5, level change is my happy spot.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Cases like that, I have TCAS on Below and see where planes are turning in for their base leg. And their "you're 5 miles from DGLAS, turn right heading blah maintain blah cleared for the ILS..." Now I can see and hear where people are getting turned in, just my techniques. For Seattle landing to the south when you're coming in the from the north or east, these techniques work out great. 210 kts and flaps 5, level change is my happy spot.

I started to type that the skippers here would lose their mind if you slowed to 210 too early… and then I remembered that is no longer my concern.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I started to type that the skippers here would lose their mind if you slowed to 210 too early… and then I remembered that is no longer my concern.

I mean I don't just arbitrarily slow to 210 unless it's a place that typically doesn't give speed reductions. Seattle (and I assume ATL) are usually good about giving speed restrictions.


Newark typically does a good job. Once in a while, they don't give a speed reduction. In that case, I wait at 250 kts until about 5-6 miles before the 90 degree onto final to intercept. Then I dial it back to 210 and get flaps 1. My goal is to not make that final turn at 250 knots and barrel it right through.

 

[///AMG]

We have (I think) 14 of the -700s.

I am convinced the tail summary is a lie, and we only have one poor -700, and it just gets beat up every single day on ASA61/62. Granted it also has the ability to time travel to the gate in SEA while also in flight home from PANC.