B737 Talk

[///AMG]

JC,

I have a feeling there is a tremendous technical knowledge base resident here, for this legendary, much maligned, also much celebrated, sometimes underwhelming, and endearingly archaic aircraft. My question is what are your biggest lessons learned, or helpful tips, or even just general wisdom, that you might want to pass along to a total noob? I leave this open ended as a conversation starter, though I certainly have some much more specific questions if people are interested in nerdery

 

[Minuteman]

In the MAX "8," "9," "10" naming scheme chosen by Boeing, the "10" is usually represented by "X" in information systems, which is the only time their dumb names sort correctly, when it is adulterated.

 

[///AMG]

In the MAX "8," "9," "10" naming scheme chosen by Boeing, the "10" is usually represented by "X" in information systems, which is the only time their dumb names sort correctly, when it is adulterated.

Hah that is interesting. So does the MAX 10 exist? Wasn't big Dave C saying we won't build it if the feds don't relent on the certification/EICAS issue? Not to sidetrack this thread into another one.....

 

[Ian_J]

JC,

I have a feeling there is a tremendous technical knowledge base resident here, for this legendary, much maligned, also much celebrated, sometimes underwhelming, and endearingly archaic aircraft. My question is what are your biggest lessons learned, or helpful tips, or even just general wisdom, that you might want to pass along to a total noob? I leave this open ended as a conversation starter, though I certainly have some much more specific questions if people are interested in nerdery

Im still new on it with only 600 hours or so, but off the top of my head…

- Perf page 2 has useful speed limit settings for VNAV
- The cabin temp controls can be touchy. In flight keeping the fwd and aft cabin duct temp at around 20 degrees seems to work okay. Pre cool the cabin on descent for hot days. On the ground, putting the right pack to high helps for max cooling.
- Speaking of bleed air, just bite the bullet and become an expert in the archaic bleed air configurations earlier rather than later in your training.
- The landing gear is your best friend for slowing down in a slam dunk approach.
- If your company trains flap use as only 1, 5, 15, and 30 - 2, 10, and 25 are useful real world. 10 is great for really long finals on the glide slope at higher speeds. If you fly mostly 800-900s but occasionally get a 700, watch those flap speed limits!
- watch VNAV on descents like it’s your favorite dog that could run off into the woods and get lost at any time
- the autothrottles work nice but can be slow. Don’t be afraid to help them.
- when VNAV, ATs, or ATC are being little bitches, click all that stuff off and hand fly it. The 73 hand flies great.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

Im still new on it with only 600 hours or so, but off the top of my head…

- Perf page 2 has useful speed limit settings for VNAV
- The cabin temp controls can be touchy. In flight keeping the fwd and aft cabin duct temp at around 20 degrees seems to work okay. Pre cool the cabin on descent for hot days. On the ground, putting the right pack to high helps for max cooling.
- Speaking of bleed air, just bite the bullet and become an expert in the archaic bleed air configurations earlier rather than later in your training.
- The landing gear is your best friend for slowing down in a slam dunk approach.
- If your company trains flap use as only 1, 5, 15, and 30 - 2, 10, and 25 are useful real world. 10 is great for really long finals on the glide slope at higher speeds. If you fly mostly 800-900s but occasionally get a 700, watch those flap speed limits!
- watch VNAV on descents like it’s your favorite dog that could run off into the woods and get lost at any time
- the autothrottles work nice but can be slow. Don’t be afraid to help them.
- when VNAV, ATs, or ATC are being little bitches, click all that stuff off and hand fly it. The 73 hand flies great.

This is a good list.

Perf page 2 stops the extremely annoying ECON DESCENT at the cost index from slowing you to .68/256

It happens when you get an early descent more than 100 miles from TOD. You’re looking up at the glare shield and when you press ALT INTV the aircraft slows way up and it can catch you off guard. It doesn’t help you’re looking in the wrong place when the airplane sneaks this one on you.

I’d add that getting slowed down early and being stable a long ways out is good practice for a noob. I brief it so it’s not a surprise. I’ve been on the airplane for over four years now and it still eats my lunch on occasion.

Here’s a few of mine:

- The max speed brakes are super sensitive. Yeet with caution. The airplane will plunge out of the sky compared to an NG.

- The environmental system needs to “warm up” to function consistently. The packs need to warm up to operate at a consistent temperature. Waiting to turn the APU on is setting yourself up for failure.

- Autobrakes are your friend. Minimum 2 for xwind landings.

- TRs should remain deployed until the engines spool to idle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Im still new on it with only 600 hours or so, but off the top of my head…

- Perf page 2 has useful speed limit settings for VNAV
- The cabin temp controls can be touchy. In flight keeping the fwd and aft cabin duct temp at around 20 degrees seems to work okay. Pre cool the cabin on descent for hot days. On the ground, putting the right pack to high helps for max cooling.
- Speaking of bleed air, just bite the bullet and become an expert in the archaic bleed air configurations earlier rather than later in your training.
- The landing gear is your best friend for slowing down in a slam dunk approach.
- If your company trains flap use as only 1, 5, 15, and 30 - 2, 10, and 25 are useful real world. 10 is great for really long finals on the glide slope at higher speeds. If you fly mostly 800-900s but occasionally get a 700, watch those flap speed limits!
- watch VNAV on descents like it’s your favorite dog that could run off into the woods and get lost at any time
- the autothrottles work nice but can be slow. Don’t be afraid to help them.
- when VNAV, ATs, or ATC are being little bitches, click all that stuff off and hand fly it. The 73 hand flies great.

The MAX doesn't have flaps 40?

 

[MikeD]

- work in a “C” pattern when setting the bleeds for a bleeds off takeoff. Draw a reverse “C” pattern when reestablishing bleeds on, on climb out.

- don’t be that guy who deploys the TRs by opening the cans and immediately tries to go to reverse thrust, without giving the pin on the TR handles the second or so it needs to retract out of the way so the TRs handles can be lifted past idle reverse. Fanning the TRs open on main gear touchdown, and nicely lowering the nosewheel to the runway before engaging reverse thrust, covers this issue. Also, fly the nose to the runway, don’t just let it slam down.

- penetrating rain or such, set both engine ignition switches to FLT instead of just LOW IGN (Cont), like some pilots do. May as well use all your igniters for flameout prevention rather than just the selected side:

- NGs and lower, speed brakes in the air are a waste of time and do not much more than shake the airframe. Never plan on depending on them to help you. In the terminal area, better to get slowed and get the first set of flaps out before beginning a descent, or you might not get the chance to speed-wise without throwing out the landing gear early.

- Flaps 40 is quite useful, but use it for idle descent rate final approaches, rather than selecting it and flying a dragged-in normal approach at a high power setting.

- know your EPR settings or N1 settings for a given phase of flight, you may need to know that for things like a go around rather than only depending on the settings to automatically set. Full TOGA isn’t always needed for a go around in VMC

- descents. Trust but verify with VNAV. Understand why is does what it does and how it chooses a descent point, which may not be the exact point displayed on your map page. V/S descent works fine too. In the terminal area, level change is your friend

- climbs: be careful using V/S for high climb rates, can get you in trouble at higher altitudes as the jet tries to maintain the VSI you commanded.

- dual channel autopilot autoland……sucks. Monitor it diligently.

- use last position when setting the aircraft position in the box after a leg has been flown and the Nav box is being recycled off and back to on. Doesn’t matter that its not the official airport last/longs, as the jet will do an update when the TOGA is selected during takeoff

 

[bike21]

- The cabin temp controls can be touchy. In flight keeping the fwd and aft cabin duct temp at around 20 degrees seems to work okay. Pre cool the cabin on descent for hot days. On the ground, putting the right pack to high helps for max cooling.

You're my kinda 737 driver, many thanks for keeping it cool back there!

 

[Ian_J]

The MAX doesn't have flaps 40?

It does, as do the NGs.

 

[Ian_J]

- work in a “C” pattern when setting the bleeds for a bleeds off takeoff. Draw a reverse “C” pattern when reestablishing bleeds on, on climb out.

- don’t be that guy who deploys the TRs by opening the cans and immediately tries to go to reverse thrust, without giving the pin on the TR handles the second or so it needs to retract out of the way so the TRs handles can be lifted past idle reverse. Fanning the TRs open on main gear touchdown, and nicely lowering the nosewheel to the runway before engaging reverse thrust, covers this issue. Also, fly the nose to the runway, don’t just let it slam down.

- penetrating rain or such, set both engine ignition switches to FLT instead of just LOW IGN (Cont), like some pilots do. May as well use all your igniters for flameout prevention rather than just the selected side:

- NGs and lower, speed brakes in the air are a waste of time and do not much more than shake the airframe. Never plan on depending on them to help you. In the terminal area, better to get slowed and get the first set of flaps out before beginning a descent, or you might not get the chance to speed-wise without throwing out the landing gear early.

- Flaps 40 is quite useful, but use it for idle descent rate final approaches, rather than selecting it and flying a dragged-in normal approach at a high power setting.

- know your EPR settings or N1 settings for a given phase of flight, you may need to know that for things like a go around rather than only depending on the settings to automatically set. Full TOGA isn’t always needed for a go around in VMC

- descents. Trust but verify with VNAV. Understand why is does what it does and how it chooses a descent point, which may not be the exact point displayed on your map page. V/S descent works fine too. In the terminal area, level change is your friend

- climbs: be careful using V/S for high climb rates, can get you in trouble at higher altitudes as the jet tries to maintain the VSI you commanded.

- dual channel autopilot autoland……sucks. Monitor it diligently.

- use last position when setting the aircraft position in the box after a leg has been flown and the Nav box is being recycled off and back to on. Doesn’t matter that its not the official airport last/longs, as the jet will do an update when the TOGA is selected during takeoff

For @///AMG ’s benefit, while I 1000% agree with point six, your shop may mandate a go around be done in a specific way. Point 8 - a max rate climb can be done in VNAV with the box too. Much safer. And for the last point, same as point six… your shop may want a specific way for that.

 

[MikeD]

For @///AMG ’s benefit, while I 1000% agree with point six, your shop may mandate a go around be done in a specific way. Point 8 - a max rate climb can be done in VNAV with the box too. Much safer. And for the last point, same as point six… your shop may want a specific way for that.

Just general guidelines. Indeed, follow your own shop’s training If it supersedes any of these techniques.

 

[SurferLucas]

As someone in training on the 73...thanks y'all, loving the notes

 

[inigo88]

I’m told the secondary jump seat is some form of torture device, but have never personally confirmed. Also, it has a coat closet.

 

[Ian_J]

I’m told the secondary jump seat is some form of torture device, but have never personally confirmed. Also, it has a coat closet.

View attachment 66043

It’s truly terrible. If that was my only option getting to work, making my kid’s wedding, or getting to my grandma’s funeral… sorry… ain’t going to make it!

 

[form810]

JC,

I have a feeling there is a tremendous technical knowledge base resident here, for this legendary, much maligned, also much celebrated, sometimes underwhelming, and endearingly archaic aircraft. My question is what are your biggest lessons learned, or helpful tips, or even just general wisdom, that you might want to pass along to a total noob? I leave this open ended as a conversation starter, though I certainly have some much more specific questions if people are interested in nerdery

"Tech" - of or relating to a tool.
"Ni" - nickle. if I had enough of them, I could own a really big private jet.
"Cal" - that crazy state out on the left coast.

"Technical" - A California tool who's rich enough to own his own really big private jet. Preferably a BBJ!

Did I win the contest?


Also: this sentence needs to be posted in the JC Great Statements hall of fame: "I have a feeling there is a tremendous technical knowledge base resident here, for this legendary, much maligned, also much celebrated, sometimes underwhelming, and endearingly archaic aircraft."

 

[Minuteman]

I would like it if Delta said to Boeing, "Hey you know those 100 aircraft we just ordered; the first large MAX 10 order? How about you put an EICAS and another AOA vane on it. You know, just like you did on that 767 we bought 40 years ago and now have parked in a museum.

Actually, what do you know about smart probes? Or can you get your hands on some sub-zero packs?

What's that? You worry that Southwest will complain that their cattle cars are getting "uppity" and require more differences training than a couple of PowerPoint slides? Well, • them, they don't have any plans to buy any MAX 10s, so how many more decades are you gonna coast on that as an excuse to introduce changes that will be more safe, improve dispatch numbers, and lower maintenance costs?"

 

[///AMG]

So what are your thoughts about flaps? When and how much? Techniques? I'd say that all these bananas flaps options are potentially the most confusing for my pea brain (I'm used to either up/half/full or just up/down). As @MikeFavinger astutely noted, I am one who will fly mostly 800/900/MAX with an occasional 700F. What's the finesse point? Speaking mostly to dirtying up, slowing down, terminal area stuff. The up and away config changes are fairly straight forward. I come from a plane that can basically do anything once you slow to 240, though it also does not really slow down and go down without speed brakes (which aren't limited by flap settings in that case). Though I have been taught over the years to die a little inside when you fail and have to use the boards.

 

[///AMG]

I’m told the secondary jump seat is some form of torture device, but have never personally confirmed. Also, it has a coat closet.

View attachment 66043

Do torture devices have cup holders? Best seat in the house to grab the battery containment bag says my training manuals

 

[Ian_J]

So what are your thoughts about flaps? When and how much? Techniques? I'd say that all these bananas flaps options are potentially the most confusing for my pea brain (I'm used to either up/half/full or just up/down). As @MikeFavinger astutely noted, I am one who will fly mostly 800/900/MAX with an occasional 700F. What's the finesse point? Speaking mostly to dirtying up, slowing down, terminal area stuff. The up and away config changes are fairly straight forward. I come from a plane that can basically do anything once you slow to 240, though it also does not really slow down and go down without speed brakes (which aren't limited by flap settings in that case). Though I have been taught over the years to die a little inside when you fail and have to use the boards.

If you are on an arrival in VNAV path and ATC keeps you high too long or slows you while you’re descending, you’ll have to use the boards to stay on or recapture the path. You can set anti ice on/off altitudes and input the local altimeter on the forecast page in the the box which might help a little.

VERY generally… 210 flaps 1 on downwind either abeam the field or somewhere before you anticipate being turned to base (or 5-7-ish miles from the FAF if straight in). 180 flaps 5 on base. Flaps 10 on a long final or if ATC kept you high or fast if you need it, otherwise, gear down flaps 15 at around 2000 agl. Flaps 30 and target speed around 1500. If you are kept fast and need it, flaps 2, and 25 can give you that extra bit of slowing.

 

[Plata]

I’m told the secondary jump seat is some form of torture device, but have never personally confirmed. Also, it has a coat closet.

View attachment 66043

I’ve sat there many times, and it is very uncomfortable, but I’ve always been thankful for the AS captains who were willing to let me into their cockpit so I could get to work. Without question, when it comes to jump seating AS captains have been the most accommodating guys I’ve encountered.