Auto Pilot Usage

ATN_Pilot said:
So your argument is that the way to prevent automation-related mistakes is to become even more rusty on the use of the automation? Yeah, that's brilliant.

I'd like to force you hand flying fetishists to fly an entire month with nothing but automation except for the first few hundred feet on departure and the last few hundred on approach. Perhaps you'd finally learn how it works instead of clicking it all off as a crutch.
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I wonder if the guys who landed on the taxiway in ATL were using automation or hand flying? I'd hazard a bet that if the autopilot was on and tracking a LOC, they'd be no mistake about what was a runway or taxiway. That was an event that could've turned out a lot differently.

Same goes for the SWA off airport landing. I wonder if they used automation or just "clicked it off" when they saw "the airport". I'm guessing the did the latter, but just a hunch.

Using automation allows you to delegate the menial task of manipulating the controls to focus more on the big picture stuff, like looking outside and on the moving map. I'd rather be focused on *where* I was landing over how sweet and smooth I am on the controls.
 
wheelsup said:
I wonder if the guys who landed on the taxiway in ATL were using automation or hand flying? I'd hazard a bet that if the autopilot was on and tracking a LOC, they'd be no mistake about what was a runway or taxiway. That was an event that could've turned out a lot differently.

Using automation allows you to delegate the menial task of manipulating the controls to focus more on the big picture stuff.
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It was a sidestep maneuver and the LOC wasn't on for that runway. That was a poorly managed situation all around. On the 757/767, you cannot get out of the approach mode once fully captured without turning off the AP and FD and recycling it. Very high threat situation to make a critical error, particularly after flying for 10 hours with no rest break.
 
wheelsup said:
I wonder if the guys who landed on the taxiway in ATL were using automation or hand flying? I'd hazard a bet that if the autopilot was on and tracking a LOC, they'd be no mistake about what was a runway or taxiway. That was an event that could've turned out a lot differently.

Using automation allows you to delegate the menial task of manipulating the controls to focus more on the big picture stuff.
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Amen. A certain group of corndogs recently landed at the wrong airport and came pretty close to getting a bunch of people killed, too. All because they were too focused on hand flying and not using the technology available to them.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Amen. A certain group of corndogs recently landed at the wrong airport and came pretty close to getting a bunch of people killed, too. All because they were too focused on hand flying and not using the technology available to them.
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They weren't focused on handflying. They were focused on the wrong strip of pavement despite the picture and numbers on their screens disagreeing with what they were seeing. That's called bad SA and target fixation, not being too focused on handflying.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
They weren't focused on handflying. They were focused on the wrong strip of pavement despite the picture and numbers on their screens disagreeing with what they were seeing. That's called bad SA and target fixation, not a focus on handflying.
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You can try to deflect all you want, but the fact of the matter is that they wouldn't have landed at the wrong airport and almost killed a whole bunch of people if they had been using the automation. Period.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You can try to deflect all you want, but the fact of the matter is that they wouldn't have landed at the wrong airport and almost killed a whole bunch of people if they had been using the automation. Period.
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The fact is they disregarded all the numbers and lines on their screens after having it all hooked up to pull off that feat.

We're not going to agree here, since you believe that professionalism and safety is keyed to having the automation hooked up a maximum amount of time. I argue that effective management of the aircraft with good SA/CRM/TEM is the most critical key to a safe flight, and that handflying can be safely done under that umbrella.
 
BobDDuck said:
I'll hand fly the departure until we are turned on course. On the arrival I'll normally dump the autopilot and autothrottles before I start configuring. It varies though. Yesterday I turned the AP on at 500 feet because the sun was my eyes and then later in the day dumped it at 500 feet because I was watching a submarine come into the channel (while monitoring all the pertinent flight instruments of course).
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I've found my autopilot usage depends on whether the sun is in my eyes or whenever I want another sip of coffee.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
All these people talking about hand flying into the teens, no wonder I can't get a smooth ride when I'm riding in the back. :rolleyes:
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Only a problem if you're a "high gain" type of guy. You know what helps people fly smoother? Actually hand-flying the jet from time to time. Practice is a thing.

PeanuckleCRJ said:
We have no requirement to have it on during an RNAV 1 SID, thank gosh. How freaking stupid!
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Yeah, it's generally not an issue, but you know just as well as I how finely-tuned those European noise sensors are. Same with Asia.
 
dasleben said:
You know what helps people fly smoother? Actually hand-flying the jet from time to time. Practice is a thing.
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As I said, my thousands of hours flying with hundreds of guys has shown the exact opposite: the guys who hand fly all the time are the guys who are the worst at it. But that's beside the point. The point is that I'm not interested in you getting your "practice" while I'm paying $1,200 for a ride and want to take a nap without pulling Gs.
 
dasleben said:
Only a problem if you're a "high gain" type of guy. You know what helps people fly smoother? Actually hand-flying the jet from time to time. Practice is a thing.



Yeah, it's generally not an issue, but you know just as well as I how finely-tuned those European noise sensors are. Same with Asia.
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Spot on!
 
ATN_Pilot said:
As I said, my thousands of hours flying with hundreds of guys has shown the exact opposite: the guys who hand fly all the time are the guys who are the worst at it. But that's beside the point. The point is that I'm not interested in you getting your "practice" while I'm paying $1,200 for a ride and want to take a nap without pulling Gs.
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Dude, I mean this in the best possible way, but just quit. Seriously, we know you'd rather be doing anything else than fly for a living, so why drag it out longer? Maintaining proficiency in hand-flying is strongly encouraged by both the FAA and NTSB, and frankly, I enjoy it. If you'd rather just autoland every leg (we could on 90%+ of our legs, actually), why do this for a living?

And really, if you're pulling Gs while hand-flying, you're doing it really wrong.
 
There is a time and place for everything.

You should be able to use all the automation or none of it, depending on what the situation warrants.

The most important part is being able to recognize the situation and act accordingly.

Beautuful glass smooth day? If you can't hand fly to at least an acceptable rate of smoothness, you need to practice. This isn't witchcraft. It's a reasonable skill that you need to practice. The automation won't always be there.

Flip side, you need to be able to recognize when you're about to enter a high workload environment and need all the automation you can get to help ease the work load. Similarly, if you see your PM is a-holes and elbows, it's time to turn it on.

There is no single right answer. But there is a wrong answer, and just as in politics they lie to the extremes of both sides.
 
dasleben said:
Dude, I mean this in the best possible way, but just quit. Seriously, we know you'd rather be doing anything else than fly for a living, so why drag it out longer? Maintaining proficiency in hand-flying is strongly encouraged by both the FAA and NTSB, and frankly, I enjoy it. If you'd rather just autoland every leg (we could on 90%+ of our legs, actually), why do this for a living?
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You see, that attitude is the entire problem. It's not a hobby for you to have fun with. It's a job. If you want to have fun, rent a Cessna. Or buy one. That's what I'll be doing (despite your silly claim that I don't care for flying).
 
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