Auto Pilot Usage

I thought this thread would get interesting, and I wasn't disappointed.

In the first few rows of the CRJ in the pax cabin, you can easily hear the A/P disconnect go off. The majority of the time, right as I hear it, the plane seems to become noticeably more squirrely with sharper movements. There have been a few times where I heard it and suddenly everything became smooth as silk all the way down to a great landing, and there has been a time or two where it felt like doing an uncoordinated steep turn in a 172(@JordanD I think you remember that flight). But whatever the stance on hand-flying the big jets may be among the 121 guys here, I would hope that the PM is honest with the PF and let's them know if their stick and rudder leaves much to be desired rather than just being silently annoyed.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You see, that attitude is the entire problem. It's not a hobby for you to have fun with. It's a job. If you want to have fun, rent a Cessna. Or buy one. That's what I'll be doing (despite your silly claim that I don't care for flying).
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This is my job, and I treat it as such. Anyone who works with me, or has flown with me, knows how I approach things. You've missed the mark entirely.

As a professional, you have a responsibility to have a mastery of your aircraft in all phases of flight, from fully hooked up, all the way down to AP/AT/FD off. The Feds are on my side on this one, sorry.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You see, that attitude is the entire problem. It's not a hobby for you to have fun with. It's a job. If you want to have fun, rent a Cessna. Or buy one. That's what I'll be doing (despite your silly claim that I don't care for flying).
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The worst pilot I ever flew with at Pinnacle had the exact same attitude and strong opinions on handflying.

He got canned.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You see, that attitude is the entire problem. It's not a hobby for you to have fun with. It's a job. If you want to have fun, rent a Cessna. Or buy one. That's what I'll be doing (despite your silly claim that I don't care for flying).
Click to expand...

Those of us disagreeing with you see it the same way from our perspective. This is a job. Every aspect of this airplane should be made your bitch. Those who turn the autopilot on and pull out the McPaper are a different side of the same coin.
 
ChasenSFO said:
I thought this thread would get interesting, and I wasn't disappointed.

In the first few rows of the CRJ in the pax cabin, you can easily hear the A/P disconnect go off. The majority of the time, right as I hear it, the plane seems to become noticeably more squirrely with sharper movements. There have been a few times where I heard it and suddenly everything became smooth as silk all the way down to a great landing, and there has been a time or two where it felt like doing an uncoordinated steep turn in a 172(@JordanD I think you remember that flight). But whatever the stance on hand-flying the big jets may be among the 121 guys here, I would hope that the PM is honest with the PF and let's them know if their stick and rudder leaves much to be desired rather than just being silently annoyed.
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Can't hear the A/P disconnect if it's never connected. ;)
 
cencal83406 said:
Can't hear the A/P disconnect if it's never connected. ;)
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This is true. Back in the day I used to get first all the time on RJs before United started upgrading everyone who has more than 17 miles, and I don't recall a single time I didn't hear it. Don't think I've ever been on an RJ flight shorter than 40 minutes though.
 
dasleben said:
Yes, really. http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avia...afety/safo/all_safos/media/2013/SAFO13002.pdf Even worse when you get 1-2 landings a month, if that.
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I don't think you even read that, or read the remarks of the NTSB members on this issue. Occasional hand flying to prevent atrophy is one thing. That's needed and appropriate. Doing it every leg (or most legs) wastes fuel, reduces SA in many situations, loads up the PM, gives the passengers an uncomfortable ride, etc. The Feds have never advocated this silliness of hand flying to FL180 every flight, and they never will.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't think you even read that, or read the remarks of the NTSB members on this issue. Occasional hand flying to prevent atrophy is one thing. That's needed and appropriate. Doing it every leg (or most legs) wastes fuel, reduces SA in many situations, loads up the PM, gives the passengers an uncomfortable ride, etc. The Feds have never advocated this silliness of hand flying to FL180 every flight, and they never will.
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I give up. We all know you never, ever, back down, even when you've been plainly handed evidence contrary to your argument. :)
 
I routinely hand fly to 400 knots, I like to get it all trimmed out nice. We're usually in the mid 20s by then.

Smooth as a baby's butt.

The PM has little to do at that time of the flight in my airplane. I mean they are literally just sitting there watching me fly. Last night, passing 14,000 for 15 out of ORD, ATC said advise ready to copy a re-route due to the airspace issues. I clicked the A/P on right then.

This whole thing is about knowing when to have it on.

Anyone pulling noticeable Gs when hand flying just isn't good at it.
 
And not to insult my peers, as I have no complaints about those who I fly with, but I have flown trips with some people that hand fly so little that if we ever had anything like a US Air 1549 dual engine out passing 3000', or any other "get your attention" emergency like that, there's no way I'm not going to say "my airplane" almost immediately. If they barely know how the airplane handles normally, then forget trying to figure it out in an emergency.
 
ChasenSFO said:
I thought this thread would get interesting, and I wasn't disappointed.

In the first few rows of the CRJ in the pax cabin, you can easily hear the A/P disconnect go off. The majority of the time, right as I hear it, the plane seems to become noticeably more squirrely with sharper movements. There have been a few times where I heard it and suddenly everything became smooth as silk all the way down to a great landing, and there has been a time or two where it felt like doing an uncoordinated steep turn in a 172(@JordanD I think you remember that flight). But whatever the stance on hand-flying the big jets may be among the 121 guys here, I would hope that the PM is honest with the PF and let's them know if their stick and rudder leaves much to be desired rather than just being silently annoyed.
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Of course, the Mesa flight where I felt like I was going to have to start doing the hook maneuver.
 
JordanD said:
Of course, the Mesa flight where I felt like I was going to have to start doing the hook maneuver.
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To be fair, it was like a 4:45AM departure or whatever. US Airways fault for thinking they were in condition to start their day with a 3AM wake-up call.
 
ChasenSFO said:
Really? Good for you man, spend some time flying for a major and then make enough money to fly for fun in your own airplane. That's pretty much my end goal, if I can do it all under 40 even better.
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The irony is the airline in your avatar is why he's quitting. He's so opinionated and hardheaded that when they bought AirTran he said he was going to quit before converting over to them.

He's um... well known among the Trannies, and they have bets out on whether he's gonna keep to his word.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
You see, that attitude is the entire problem. It's not a hobby for you to have fun with. It's a job. If you want to have fun, rent a Cessna. Or buy one. That's what I'll be doing (despite your silly claim that I don't care for flying).
Click to expand...

If it weren't enjoyable, no one would do it. I'm as irritated by the Riddle-Nerds as anyone. Maybe moreso, because i don't think they've really stuck their pointy heads in to the depths of the nerdgasm aviation has to give. But, dude, if you're not doing this because, ultimately, it's FUN (every once in a while), you've lost the beat. Your relentlessness in repeating, again and again, that (essentially) "if it involves a human being doing something that isn't written down in a book, somewhere (preferably by a computer...faultless, them), it's Dangerous" is, in itself, Dangerous.

I think, ultimately, what we're talking about are paradigmatic certainties, or, "orthodoxies", in a word. Over and over again, I see (and not just in relatively unimportant aviation pursefights) the absurd claim that "well, yeah, but I'm actually an EXPERT in this, and you're wrong. Because I'm an Expert". It's a logical fallacy so brazen that a third grader could laugh at it But we seem to lap it up. I think maybe it has something to do with the specialization of skills in the post-industrial world (well, I mean, obviously, it does)...but it's more than that. It's some way in which we've responded to Modernity such that we can look earnestly at the camera (because, of course, Modernity is synonymous with "on camera"...at least in our minds) and say "Yes, it was some other ineffable thing, be it training, systems-design, engineering, etc etc". All of which seem to have increasingly vague definitions, have you noticed? We have Sanitation-Engineers and Airframe-Engineers, and, you know, they're both Engineers, aren't they? So we natter about with these cascading definition-niceties, pointing the finger at everyone but ourselves. Where do you imagine this ends? Certainly not in a tiny little corner where we have to look at ourselves and figure out what's wrong with, you know, ME particularly. "What's MY responsibility, what is MY obligation?" No, that's outdated. We're going to find the Other Thing if we keep this up. I'm sure of it.

But if I weren't certain of it, I might say something like "Time to grow up. TH
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't think you even read that, or read the remarks of the NTSB members on this issue. Occasional hand flying to prevent atrophy is one thing. That's needed and appropriate. Doing it every leg (or most legs) wastes fuel, reduces SA in many situations, loads up the PM, gives the passengers an uncomfortable ride, etc. The Feds have never advocated this silliness of hand flying to FL180 every flight, and they never will.
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You're the Captain. It's the FO's leg. He wants to hand fly it up to the FL's, do you allow it, or use CA authority and deny him. Can a Captain deny an FO to hand fly?
 
wheelsup said:
I wonder if the guys who landed on the taxiway in ATL were using automation or hand flying? I'd hazard a bet that if the autopilot was on and tracking a LOC, they'd be no mistake about what was a runway or taxiway. That was an event that could've turned out a lot differently.

Same goes for the SWA off airport landing. I wonder if they used automation or just "clicked it off" when they saw "the airport". I'm guessing the did the latter, but just a hunch.

Using automation allows you to delegate the menial task of manipulating the controls to focus more on the big picture stuff, like looking outside and on the moving map. I'd rather be focused on *where* I was landing over how sweet and smooth I am on the controls.
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Wonder what the guys landing at Kai Tak would do if they didn't click off the automation........:)
 
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