Auto Pilot Usage

[PeanuckleCRJ]

For the love of God WHY?!?

I had to sit through a few F/Os and CAs who did that. The PNF workload goes through the roof and no matter how "smooth" you think you are, I guarantee you are not. Plus hand flying burns more fuel, something like 2% more.

It was common among pilots at Pinnacle to handfly a very short leg 100% of the way through about once a month. It was always a 20ish minute or less flight. I never had a problem with guys doing it as long as it was briefed.

One of my favorite comments was a mainline pilot walking off the plane... poked his head up front, thanks us for the good flight and commented "this thing has the smoothest autothrust system!" (there of course is none installed)

 

[Tommay85]

For the love of God WHY?!?

I had to sit through a few F/Os and CAs who did that. The PNF workload goes through the roof and no matter how "smooth" you think you are, I guarantee you are not. Plus hand flying burns more fuel, something like 2% more.

Setting some bugs dramatically increases your workload?

 

[Tommay85]

Exactly. Just children wanting to show off. Nothing more.

No, it's not.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Setting some bugs dramatically increases your workload?

The monitoring workload goes through the roof when one crewmember fails to make adequate use of the automation at his disposal.

(That's right, I'm not just there to talk on the radio as PM.)

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The monitoring workload goes through the roof when one crewmember fails to make appropriate use of the automation at his disposal.

(That's right, I'm not just there to talk on the radio as PM.)

Fixed your post.

Watching a guy fingerbang the flight guidance when turning it all off is more appropriate falls under the same umbrella. One of the more common trips I've flown over the last year is to San Salvador... you come over the ridge at 8000 feet, end up overhead the airport, and they clear you for the visual. I've seen a number of ways to manage it, but the vastly preferred method is just turning it all off instead of spinning pulling pressing spinning some more, end up altitude capturing and having to get out of that...and so on and so forth.

Our fleet recommendation on a visual pattern approach is to turn it all off now, actually.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Our fleet recommendation on a visual pattern approach is to turn it all off now, actually.

Thank you for the heads up. As if I needed another reason to avoid the Airbus fleet.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Thank you for the heads up. As if I needed another reason to avoid the Airbus fleet.

Because that makes sense.

 

[Tommay85]

The monitoring workload goes through the roof when one crewmember fails to make adequate use of the automation at his disposal.

(That's right, I'm not just there to talk on the radio as PM.)

Sorry, I'm not seeing it.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Because that makes sense.

Sorry, but my priorities when selecting a flight go something like this:

1. Safety

2. Fits into my schedule

3. Comfortable (not being jerked all over the sky by some macho Yeager wannabe included)

........

9,999. Pilot stroking his ego by pretending that he can hand fly as smooth as the automation

 

[Nick]

With a new software load in the type that I fly, I'm quite certain I can fly smoother than the automation when it is in LNAV.

It really jerks it into a turn when nearing a fix, for no reason. It cranked it into a 33 degree bank two days ago at FL350 and the pitch limit indicator came down quite a bit; I had not seen it do this in the past six years but something has apparently changed with the new FMS load.

People that never hand fly are not smooth, but those that do can fly smoothly effortlessly.

I bet a lot at my carrier have never even felt how the airplane handles above 400 knots TAS. An autopilot MEL'd leg would be a crisis. And while I might refuse an airplane with the autopilot MEL'd depending on flight length, workday situation/fatigue, weather, etc., I would be hard pressed to find a reason to refuse an A/P MEL'd plane on a short leg, VFR etc. and the rest of the right circumstances. In fact that is the only time I have had this airplane have the autoflight deferred -- and we flew it into LGA with no autopilot. The weather was nice, and since I regularly hand-fly it felt like I was just driving my car. It is not a big deal and it doesn't need to feel un-smooth. Anyone jerking it around is flying with too many fingers on the controls.

A click of the trim every few minutes is all that is needed, what on earth would even make it un-smooth?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Sorry, but my priorities when selecting a flight go something like this:

1. Safety

2. Fits into my schedule

3. Comfortable (not being jerked all over the sky by some macho Yeager wannabe included)

........

9,999. Pilot stroking his ego by pretending that he can hand fly as smooth as the automation

Recent accidents have had factors of mismanagement of the aircraft/losing SA when it was on autopilot and not knowing how to react when the unexpected happened. UPS in BHM, Asiana in SFO, AF 447.

And i'll bet you any amount of money that you want that I can join an ILS smoother than the AP.

The guy that was jerking you around likely didn't hand fly much and decided "I should probably do it this time." Most DL flights are hand flown up into the teens. The fleet with highest average amount of time of handflying per flight? The 777.

 

[Tommay85]

Sorry, but my priorities when selecting a flight go something like this:

1. Safety

2. Fits into my schedule

3. Comfortable (not being jerked all over the sky by some macho Yeager wannabe included)

........

9,999. Pilot stroking his ego by pretending that he can hand fly as smooth as the automation

I'm betting the majority just want to hand fly the plane, actually. I feel nothing different with or without the autopilot on...

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Fixed your post.

Watching a guy fingerbang the flight guidance when turning it all off is more appropriate falls under the same umbrella. One of the more common trips I've flown over the last year is to San Salvador... you come over the ridge at 8000 feet, end up overhead the airport, and they clear you for the visual. I've seen a number of ways to manage it, but the vastly preferred method is just turning it all off instead of spinning pulling pressing spinning some more, end up altitude capturing and having to get out of that...and so on and so forth.

Our fleet recommendation on a visual pattern approach is to turn it all off now, actually.

Fair 'nuff. "Adequate" and "appropriate" are two sides of the same coin; I blame my worn-out IROPS state for not choosing that term.

Coming over the hill into PSP this morning - "cleared for the visual approach." You can (1) try to descend on the autopilot or (2) just do the right thing and turn it off and pitch for 200 knots manually. The point is: Make the airplane do what you want, use whatever means you need. If that means steering it around on the FCP, that's fine. If that means getting your pilot on, that is perfectly alright too. (But don't fear having an autopilot hooked up. They're much more precise than I can be. But they sure are stupid!)

When I turn off the autopilot and turn on the awesome pilot, I also tend to deactivate the flight director, especially in VFR conditions. I fully intend to have "click click, click click" happen on the new airplane.

Sorry, I'm not seeing it.

"Trust me."

(PNF vs. PM here. The PM is, properly speaking and at the highest level of monitoring, very much 'flying' the aircraft too. It's harder to do that when the other guy is Yeagering it up.)

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

People that never hand fly are not smooth, but those that do can fly smoothly effortlessly.

Uh huh. Same crap I heard from the RJ guys I used to fly with. Right before they put me and the passengers through 20 minutes of +1.25G to -0.75G "fun."

 

[Tommay85]

Fair 'nuff. "Adequate" and "appropriate" are two sides of the same coin; I blame my worn-out IROPS state for not choosing that term.

When I turn off the autopilot and turn on the awesome pilot, I also tend to deactivate the flight director, especially in VFR conditions. I fully intend to have "click click, click click" happen on the new airplane.


"Trust me."

(PNF vs. PM here. The PM is, properly speaking and at the highest level of monitoring, very much 'flying' the aircraft too. It's harder to do that when the other guy is Yeagering it up.)

What is with all the Yeager/ego references??? That isn't at all remotely what it is.

For what it's worth, I sit in both seats and I'm just not seeing the work load go up a significant amount. Agree to disagree I guess.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I guess we should segue into when to refuse an aircraft with deferred A/P...?

Flew a turn from DTW-CWA with no autopilot. I was surprised it took 6 years to see that deferral.

 

[Nick]

Uh huh. Same crap I heard from the RJ guys I used to fly with. Right before they put me and the passengers through 20 minutes of +1.25G to -0.75G "fun."

Well, that's because they suck at hand-flying smoothly.

But their ineptitude at being light on the controls doesn't mean it can't be done.

These planes are certified under expectations that they don't need to be man-handled constantly.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Recent accidents have had factors of mismanagement of the aircraft/losing SA when it was on autopilot and not knowing how to react when the unexpected happened. UPS in BHM, Asiana in SFO, AF 447.

So your argument is that the way to prevent automation-related mistakes is to become even more rusty on the use of the automation? Yeah, that's brilliant.

I'd like to force you hand flying fetishists to fly an entire month with nothing but automation except for the first few hundred feet on departure and the last few hundred on approach. Perhaps you'd finally learn how it works instead of clicking it all off as a crutch.

The guy that was jerking you around likely didn't hand fly much

Oh, to the contrary! The worst are always the guys who do it every. single. flight. And they all think they're great at it, too.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Well, that's because they suck at hand-flying smoothly.

Everyone thinks their s---- don't stink, but everyone's does.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

So your argument is that the way to prevent automation-related mistakes is to become even more rusty on the use of the automation? Yeah, that's brilliant.

I'd like to force you hand flying fetishists to fly an entire month with nothing but automation except for the first few hundred feet on departure and the last few hundred on approach. Perhaps you'd finally learn how it works instead of clicking it all off as a crutch.



Oh, to the contrary! The worst are always the guys who do it every. single. flight. And they all think they're great at it, too.

None of what you stated here is correct. I have exceptional understanding of the flight guidance (I teach it, for crying out loud). Maybe the guys at Tranny are poor pilots at hand flying, but my experience at our shop has been absolutely the opposite. The worst and most scary pilots I've flown with were automation addicts. I prefer to have a mastery in all regimes, which is encouraged by the company.