Auto Pilot Usage

Boris Badenov said:
If it weren't enjoyable, no one would do it. I'm as irritated by the Riddle-Nerds as anyone. Maybe moreso, because i don't think they've really stuck their pointy heads in to the depths of the nerdgasm aviation has to give. But, dude, if you're not doing this because, ultimately, it's FUN (every once in a while), you've lost the beat. Your relentlessness in repeating, again and again, that (essentially) "if it involves a human being doing something that isn't written down in a book, somewhere (preferably by a computer...faultless, them), it's Dangerous" is, in itself, Dangerous.

I think, ultimately, what we're talking about are paradigmatic certainties, or, "orthodoxies", in a word. Over and over again, I see (and not just in relatively unimportant aviation pursefights) the absurd claim that "well, yeah, but I'm actually an EXPERT in this, and you're wrong. Because I'm an Expert". It's a logical fallacy so brazen that a third grader could laugh at it But we seem to lap it up. I think maybe it has something to do with the specialization of skills in the post-industrial world (well, I mean, obviously, it does)...but it's more than that. It's some way in which we've responded to Modernity such that we can look earnestly at the camera (because, of course, Modernity is synonymous with "on camera"...at least in our minds) and say "Yes, it was some other ineffable thing, be it training, systems-design, engineering, etc etc". All of which seem to have increasingly vague definitions, have you noticed? We have Sanitation-Engineers and Airframe-Engineers, and, you know, they're both Engineers, aren't they? So we natter about with these cascading definition-niceties, pointing the finger at everyone but ourselves. Where do you imagine this ends? Certainly not in a tiny little corner where we have to look at ourselves and figure out what's wrong with, you know, ME particularly. "What's MY responsibility, what is MY obligation?" No, that's outdated. We're going to find the Other Thing if we keep this up. I'm sure of it.

But if I weren't certain of it, I might say something like "Time to grow up. TH
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Man, I have to give you an award for your impressive use of vocabulary!
 
I'm late to the party, but I'll throw in my data:

Depending on the airport, I'd turn on the autopilot between 5,000 and 10,000 feet on average. I have personally hand-flown to 18,000 (my personal maximum is to have it on once I reach the U.S. flight levels).

Out of ORD, I prefer to hand-fly so that I make the ORD8 crossing restrictions. There are other airports similar, such as MSP. In contrast, while it's not that big of a deal, I prefer to have the autopilot on in SLC for their RNAV departures.

On arrivals, I usually keep the autopilot on until 500 feet. However, I have turned it off as high as 2,000 feet, especially if I'm told to keep my speed up, or ATC has me high and downwind for a short approach.

Oh... I'm currently on the E175.
 
Nick said:
And not to insult my peers, as I have no complaints about those who I fly with, but I have flown trips with some people that hand fly so little that if we ever had anything like a US Air 1549 dual engine out passing 3000', or any other "get your attention" emergency like that, there's no way I'm not going to say "my airplane" almost immediately. If they barely know how the airplane handles normally, then forget trying to figure it out in an emergency.
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"Here," -pop- "you can have it! It's not like it's doing me any good!" ;)
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
He's so opinionated and hardheaded that when they bought AirTran he said he was going to quit before converting over to them.
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False.

Merger announcement: September 2010
Decision to work on leaving: October 2012 (after the 717s were sold and the it become clear that we couldn't hold ATL without super seniority)

But hey, I'm sure you know me better than me. :rolleyes:
 
Meh, Depends on my mood and the current conditions. I have no set point that I can claim when I turn it on or off. Sometimes fly to high teens, sometimes on at 1000. Sometimes hand fly from 10000 down sometimes turning base. I have no method to my madness. I like to keep my brain guessing. I do like keeping it on during an ILS until breakout. I do turn the auto throttles off quite a bit, they annoy me because they are no where near smooth.
 
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Boris Badenov said:
If it weren't enjoyable, no one would do it. I'm as irritated by the Riddle-Nerds as anyone. Maybe moreso, because i don't think they've really stuck their pointy heads in to the depths of the nerdgasm aviation has to give. But, dude, if you're not doing this because, ultimately, it's FUN (every once in a while), you've lost the beat. Your relentlessness in repeating, again and again, that (essentially) "if it involves a human being doing something that isn't written down in a book, somewhere (preferably by a computer...faultless, them), it's Dangerous" is, in itself, Dangerous.

I think, ultimately, what we're talking about are paradigmatic certainties, or, "orthodoxies", in a word. Over and over again, I see (and not just in relatively unimportant aviation pursefights) the absurd claim that "well, yeah, but I'm actually an EXPERT in this, and you're wrong. Because I'm an Expert". It's a logical fallacy so brazen that a third grader could laugh at it But we seem to lap it up. I think maybe it has something to do with the specialization of skills in the post-industrial world (well, I mean, obviously, it does)...but it's more than that. It's some way in which we've responded to Modernity such that we can look earnestly at the camera (because, of course, Modernity is synonymous with "on camera"...at least in our minds) and say "Yes, it was some other ineffable thing, be it training, systems-design, engineering, etc etc". All of which seem to have increasingly vague definitions, have you noticed? We have Sanitation-Engineers and Airframe-Engineers, and, you know, they're both Engineers, aren't they? So we natter about with these cascading definition-niceties, pointing the finger at everyone but ourselves. Where do you imagine this ends? Certainly not in a tiny little corner where we have to look at ourselves and figure out what's wrong with, you know, ME particularly. "What's MY responsibility, what is MY obligation?" No, that's outdated. We're going to find the Other Thing if we keep this up. I'm sure of it.

But if I weren't certain of it, I might say something like "Time to grow up. TH
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Look, Boris, this is a disagreement in philosophy that we're simply never going to agree on. You believe that more human involvement in the operation of the aviation appliance is better, and I think that's absolutely crazy. Several decades of statistics now indicate that we've all but eliminated mechanical failure from the equation. The few remaining accidents that we have are all human factors related. Your desire to increase the involvement of the human and reduce the involvement of the automation is counterproductive. But not just as a matter of safety. Also look at efficiency. Boeing says that using the automation saves 1% in fuel burn. Southwest spent $5.5 billion in fuel last year. Taking full advantage of the automation would therefore save the company about $55 million. That's a hell of a lot of scratch, and all you have to do to get it is to tell the cowboys to push a button.

But like I said, we aren't going to agree, so no need to keep arguing over it. Such basic disagreements over philosophy just aren't going to be worked out.
 
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ATN_Pilot said:
But like I said, we aren't going to agree, so no need to keep arguing over it. Such basic disagreements over philosophy just aren't going to be worked out.
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But isn't this exactly what you have been doing for the last 6 pages of this thread in your 22 posts and are still doing? Another case of you considering yourself to be right/correct and the only person entitled to their views/opinions while everyone else should just be quiet as the true expert of all things aviation has spoken. Apparently now, you also get to decide when others should just stop posting.
 
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ATN_Pilot said:
Yep. And at some point you have to realize that the discussion isn't going anywhere.
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Interesting, as that's never stopped you before when most people don't agree with you or whether you are wrong or not.......that's never mattered to you before. I doubt it will here either. Will be a first if this actually happens.
 
A Life Aloft said:
Interesting, as that's never stopped you before when most people don't agree with you. I doubt it will here either. Will be a first if this actually happens.
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As I keep telling you, if you don't like my style, you're more than welcome to put me on the ignore list. In fact, I encourage you to do so. Because the stalking is getting more than a bit creepy.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
As I keep telling you, if you don't like my style, you're more than welcome to put me on the ignore list. In fact, I encourage you to do so. Because the stalking is getting more than a bit creepy.
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Now I am "stalking" you? That's pretty funny coming from you, Todd. Your "style" generally consists of going out of your way to dog members, insult pretty much anyone who doesn't agree with you, be rude/offensive, belittling, twist words, lie, subterfuge, tell others what to do and being as condescending as possible.
 
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Back to the original topic at hand, if we're on an RNAV 1 SID, autopilot on above 100' (required to be on by 500', per company policy). Sadly, more and more airports are going to these types of departures, so that's becoming the norm. I hate doing 4-days where I have to fly every leg out of CLT.

If it's not an RNAV 1 SID, I'll hand fly to about 7000' or so. If we're just climbing on a straight line, I'll put the autopilot in somewhere around there. What's the use? I'm just hand flying a cannon plug anyway.

On approach, depending on the weather and wind conditions or how busy we are, it'll come off around 1000' to 500'. The other day, coming into DCA on the Mount Vernon Visual, I kicked off the autopilot and F/D and hand flew it up the river. It was a clear, VFR day, so why not?

I plan on hand flying a lot more when I get to the 757/767. It'll actually fly like something!
 
Boris Badenov said:
If it weren't enjoyable, no one would do it. I'm as irritated by the Riddle-Nerds as anyone. Maybe moreso, because i don't think they've really stuck their pointy heads in to the depths of the nerdgasm aviation has to give. But, dude, if you're not doing this because, ultimately, it's FUN (every once in a while), you've lost the beat. Your relentlessness in repeating, again and again, that (essentially) "if it involves a human being doing something that isn't written down in a book, somewhere (preferably by a computer...faultless, them), it's Dangerous" is, in itself, Dangerous.

I think, ultimately, what we're talking about are paradigmatic certainties, or, "orthodoxies", in a word. Over and over again, I see (and not just in relatively unimportant aviation pursefights) the absurd claim that "well, yeah, but I'm actually an EXPERT in this, and you're wrong. Because I'm an Expert". It's a logical fallacy so brazen that a third grader could laugh at it But we seem to lap it up. I think maybe it has something to do with the specialization of skills in the post-industrial world (well, I mean, obviously, it does)...but it's more than that. It's some way in which we've responded to Modernity such that we can look earnestly at the camera (because, of course, Modernity is synonymous with "on camera"...at least in our minds) and say "Yes, it was some other ineffable thing, be it training, systems-design, engineering, etc etc". All of which seem to have increasingly vague definitions, have you noticed? We have Sanitation-Engineers and Airframe-Engineers, and, you know, they're both Engineers, aren't they? So we natter about with these cascading definition-niceties, pointing the finger at everyone but ourselves. Where do you imagine this ends? Certainly not in a tiny little corner where we have to look at ourselves and figure out what's wrong with, you know, ME particularly. "What's MY responsibility, what is MY obligation?" No, that's outdated. We're going to find the Other Thing if we keep this up. I'm sure of it.

But if I weren't certain of it, I might say something like "Time to grow up. TH
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Very interesting post, Boris, and might I add to the eloquent vocab slam: dichotomy. Really, dichotomous reasoning, such as post hoc....after this, therefore because of this.

I hold high theory, and just that, that still the psychological aspect of human factors is and underestimated study to such argumentation of expertise. While it also hold personal bias as simply an angle I look at these issues, there will be for sometime where the human is still in the cockpit, and for that, we have each individuals decisions, patterns, learning styles, etc. that cannot nor will never fall under one metaphorical umbrella (ouch, almost spoke in cliche). It is foolish to assume a complete autonomy of the pilot, but is not foolish to assume what can be made more autonomous in terms of how we approach flying and thinking about flying the airplane, in the basic sense of how, without automation, we can put the aircraft where is belongs in both visual and instrument environments. There are still things we have not seen in airplanes, and while most "common" occurrences have been, probably over ones length of a career, have been successfully mitigated to a point that ensures safety of the paying public.

It is still enjoyable, it is still a skill, and still is even a coveted skill. It is easy to be good, but much more difficult to be great (and what makes up great and in what capacity?). Well, part of it is still basic stick and rudder skills in my reasoning, as well as using the equipment available as designed and trained to do so. It is not an attempt to broaden and dilute the discussion into many branches, but this is one that has gone into a realm of complexity that is almost needed, and will always exist even as we fly thousands of uneventful flights each day. It is also not so much where we have been, but where we are going, and how we can approach making it better before were patting our grand children on the head telling them blasphemous stories of slipping a Cub onto a grass strip and take them for ice cream in our self driving Tesla's

Please also (pray you, ha) let Joe and Gulley know of their lethargic abilities and if they can't find a way to make money off of it, fix it. :)
 
In the Botchjet I hand fly it up to the point I'm just going in a straight line, if its trimmed properly there isnt much to do. If its a busy RNAV SID then most likely the AP is going to come on early. Coming down I mix it up, sometimes hand fly from TOD and sometimes when getting vectors.
I try to do about 50% of the approaches using the AP and the rest hand flown - my philosophy being that I should be able to use the fancy gizmos as well as fly the airplane manually...

Bp244
 
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