Are Major Airline pilots overpaid?

[Kristie]

I think i'll add a little to this dead horse and try to bridge the gap a bit more - just cuz i wasn't watching what was going on here fast enough and i want my 0.02 cents heard!

i know it's more of a moot point - but i feel better after reading the thread and writing some from the "family" point of view...altho i'm sure it's not wanted nor needed...

i saw this quote and it kinda lit my fire a tad... goes a little something like this *to the theme of the beverly hillbillies*...

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
As for airline pilots spending most of the holidays and birthdays away from home- well i can understand that but it does not justify the pay

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding me? it totally justifies the pay... i've been up and down the ropes in this business from flight instruction on up - but as an outsider looking in and watching how the aviation business works and finding out how to survive day by day and how to keep myself and my pilot sane throughout the career...

you try being gone for 4 day,then home for 4 days - week after week... being away from family members, family emergencies, your kids birthdays or what not... pilots are away from their kids so long that the first thing their boys or girls learn is "when is daddy coming home?".... you don't get to watch their first crawl or walk.. most of the time, your running a single parent household...and i'm not even a mom yet - but i know what the other mothers go through... we talk

the schedules suck as your building your career - your lucky if your woman doesn't leave you because you can't plan ANYTHING! heck, i didn't know if doug would even be at our wedding until 2 weeks prior...and that was only earlier this year - 5 years after he's been in the major airline biz...

the schedules still suck - i work full time because uncle sam has to take nearly half of everything we both work for...he has to pay ALPA dues, strike fund dues, furlough dues and whatever else is left is ours to pay the mortgage with...

he hasn't had weekends off for over 2 months now... we haven't even gone a honeymoon cuz we can't plan it ahead of time (yeah, i'm sure there are ways around this but i dont want jamaica!)... you tell me again - that those who get to go home, to a home cooked meal and a nice cozy bed are underpaid? they're paid alright - only not in money but in "life"... those folks that get to go home every night get to live more - be free more, spend more time together.. they're not chained to a bowling ball called "airline schedule" - where the airline, if they so choose, can reroute you and send you from a 4 day trip to a 5 day and you can do absolutely nothing about it but call your wife and say "it'll be one more day *sigh*"...

dispatchers, ramp agents, mechanics and all of the "on the scene" airline personnel get to go home EVERY NIGHT.. and they probably get a few days off, a lunch break, smoke break or gab break during the week ta boot... granted, i do agree that they (dispatchers, ramp agents etc) should be paid what they're worth and that they might not be getting their just do for the importance in their jobs (depending on what job it is and it's qualifications) - but i totally and completely disagree with your statement...

I'm not saying that our life is harder than anyone elses... not at all... but we do have more to contend with than working 8-5 and coming home...heck, i work 7-4 and rearrange my schedule a lot of the time just to fit his so we can spend a few quality hours together. i get paid only a fraction of what he gets paid and i have a 4 year (6 year really) engineering degree - my coworkers constantly say "if your in engineering- it's not for the money"... but i realize i get to come home at night and make myself some dinner, play with the kitties and he doesn't... so for me, his pay is totally justified in my eyes..

not to long ago we went on a long 4 day weekend trip and it was grueling when we got back.. it took me an entire week to recoup the time difference and from that point on, i now totally understand the ramp up/ramp down situation pilots go through when they're gone for 4, home for 4 and on and on...whew - i sure as heck couldn't do it as a livelyhood!!

did i vent good enough

i'm not a complainer by any means (yeah, i know this doesn't quite show that)... but once in a while, a woman's gotta let loose!!

that's really my spin - from the other half of the airline family plate!

now - we can kill this thread! hahaha it's not over till the website wife sings!

 

[N519AT]

Well looks like they're discussing this over at A.net...

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1765481/

Anyone want to post a link to this thread over there?

 

[derg]

Debate on anything pilot-related at Airliners.net is about as fruitless as trying to convince Dick Cheney to vote for John Kerry.

 

[flyover]

What's the context of your experience? For decades all the jobs at major airlines were high paying relative to comparable jobs outside. This was because most airlines were completely unionized and routes and fares were protected by the government. Many college educated people went to work busting bags because it was the best paying, highest benefit job they could find.

Right or wrong the airlines now are competing with everyone else for labor. If you can do better outside the airlines you 'd better get going because it isn't going to change. The pilot situation is unique because of the skills and the fact that ALPA has held together to some extent. But it hasn't ever been about fair and it never will be.

 

[Tyler_12345]

Doug, that is a great comparison and here is another one. what is the difference between an anasthesiologist and a captain for a major airline? the anasthesiologist is only responsible for one life, multiply that by 200 lives and you have the responsiblitiy of an airline pilot. On top of the hours away from home and the training, the reason why pilots should be paid the big bucks is because of the potential loss of life. And by the way, ramp agents handle luggage with lets say a maximum amout of $100 dollars of value, the pilot is handling a multimillion dollar piece of machinery. Argue that.

 

[flyover]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's keep a few things in mind here. It takes two to tango. Airline pilots are neither over nor underpaid. Why? Because airline management has to agree to the contract. If the cost is too high, then they should not agree to it.

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Right. As we all know airline management are geniuses. If they agree to it , it must be right.

 

[derg]

Well, it was usually one pilot (me) versus about 1,500 angry flight simmers debating about the personal sacrifices, how hard it is on your body and especially your family and just how far the average pilot Joe had to come to get to where he is.

They'd call me a poopy head, I'd call them all poopy heads and it would continue to swirl down the toilet.

No thanks! Someone else's ball now! :0

 

[derg]

Hey Flyover, look at the date of the post you're replying to. We've been "Necro-posted".

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the context of your experience? For decades all the jobs at major airlines were high paying relative to comparable jobs outside. This was because most airlines were completely unionized and routes and fares were protected by the government. Many college educated people went to work busting bags because it was the best paying, highest benefit job they could find.

Right or wrong the airlines now are competing with everyone else for labor. If you can do better outside the airlines you 'd better get going because it isn't going to change. The pilot situation is unique because of the skills and the fact that ALPA has held together to some extent. But it hasn't ever been about fair and it never will be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Flyover, are you responding to 77j? I believe that last post of his was 2 years ago........

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
I spent 5 years in college, spent easily over $100,000 in training and tuition (not including room and board). Made $1,100 in 1993, $4,100 in year 1994, $6,800 in year 1995, $11,490 in 1996, $15,000 in 1997, $29,000 in 1998, $54,000 in 1999, $92,000 in 2000, $106,000 in 2001 and I make around $115,000 now in my fifth year at a major. I'm not trying to brag, it's public information.

When my non-flying buddies were out boozing, I was studying for a checkride. When my non-flying buddies were making $80,000 per year in the 'real world', I was digging in my car's ash tray for enough money for a bean burrito and a free water at Taco Bell. When my non-flying buddies took off on European vacations, I'd go down to the library which offered free internet access so I can look at their emailed pictures.

When my non-flying pals were buying high end stereos for their entertainment rooms, I was too proud to admit to my parents that I couldn't afford to replace a broken headset and I figured that a soldering iron and a speaker that I salvaged from an old 13" black and white television would be far as the old CFI budget would stretch.

When my buddies were buying houses, getting married and starting families, I was sitting up in Marquette, MI in December on reserve with 12 other guys in what seemed to be a former crack house that was turned into an airline pilot crash pad.

Then, I got lucky and found a rent-controlled, government housing project in Milwaukee with welfare moms and senior citizens on social security and still had to fudge my income in order to qualify for the minimum income level to qualify for government housing.

Know what it's like to buy a loaf of bread, a pack of store brand bologna and banana's to cover two meals per day for a week?

I continue miss most major holidays, haven't been to a birthday party since college, have no idea if I can make holidays, xmas, thanksgiving or even my own wedding until about a month before.

I also wake up often at 4am eastern time regularly, even though my "body clock" says it's 1am back at home and work a full day. Live in the pacific time zone, but your hotel pick-up is at 4:30am in Boston? Too bad, get up, shower/shave, throw on the uniform and get ready for a early morning dose of northeast corridor flying.

I take a potentially career ending flight physical twice per year and do a potentially career-ending flight check annually.

I get randomly drug tested, sniff tested by security agents, went thru 5 complete FBI background checks in six years. I also get wanded and my bags dug through about 15 to 18 times per month. Oh, and I also have to be very vigilant during layovers for terrorists trying to break into my room and steal my ID and uniform as has happened recently to other flight crew.

I'm also responsible for (sometimes) more than 700 people per day (142 at a time), I'm away from home about 200 hours per month and only paid for about 70.

I'm also responsible for knowing about 60 lbs (I weighed it when I was bored) of manuals, procedures, techniques, regulations and such. If I screw one up bad enough, I lose my job, home and chances of getting hired by another airline is zero.

And the important part -- I'm trained and paid to take a half-broken MD-88 into JFK during a driving snow storm with 1800RVR (captain does everything below that) and a nasty crosswind, do the approach precisely, be able to anticipate, react and recover from a sudden random catastrophic event, land the aircraft in the touchdown zone with a smooth landing, smile and cheefully exclaim "so long sir!" as the passengers deplane, load up and do it all over again.

Oh, and occasionally argue with dispatchers, mechanics, rampers and gate agents about safety of flight issues and be willing to say, 'if it's between flying this unsafe aircraft and losing my job, here's my resignation'.

Yeah, way overpaid I guess...

BTW, the whole thing about the plane flying itself from takeoff to touchdown is pure urban legend. And some MS riverboat captains make more than senior 777 captains. Geez, one of my neighbors is an auto mechanic living in a $450,000 house with an at-home wife.

[/ QUOTE ]

I admire you and anyone else who still likes their profession after going through all this.

 

[DonAlejandro]

Its disappointing that many people who arent involved in the Airline industry think pilots are overpaid. Everyone's comments are great.

With regards to the gentleman who posed the question... the reason that rampers arent paid a whole lot more...they are rampers, no offense to them, I am very positive they work EXTREMELY hard, but they need relatively minimal education to do their job. All they need is a High School diploma. Why do Doctors get paid as much as they do...becuase of their eduation and training. Senior Engineers can get paid as much as airline captains, especially if they get MBAs....why do MBAs raise the salary of professionals....becuase of the edduaction they receive.

We, the airline flying society, dont pay Doug and the Captain he flies with to push the "T/O" button on the autopilot... we pay them as much as they do so that he knows, by heart, all those 70 lbs of regulations, manuals, procedures, emergency plans and procedures etc in case he needs to use it.

Unfortunately for all of us that love aviation and want to be Professional Pilots...key word, Professional.... is that we love it. Any many of us will still want to do it if we dont get paid as much, but if the airlines cut Pilot salaries, eventually, who will want to spend so much time, effort, and money into training and becoming a Professional pilot, if we end up making $90,000 max...most pilots dont make that much, and lets remember, when they finally get up to make that much a year.....Hey buddy, your 60...gotta go....for no reason....any comments to that?

 

[MQAAord]

Hey, this post is Two Years Old!

The answer is NO



Moving on........

 

[n77j]

dave-flyover,
I am resting in peace now-i had the entire jetcareers coming on me like hurricane Ivan and i had to bail out from that thread

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
dave-flyover,
I am resting in peace now-i had the entire jetcareers coming on me like hurricane Ivan and i had to bail out from that thread

[/ QUOTE ]

Who revived it?

 

[A320_DUDE]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Why do we keep having this thread every 6 months. All it does is get everybody worked up and fighting one another.

Doug, please stop the madness!

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dave-flyover,
I am resting in peace now-i had the entire jetcareers coming on me like hurricane Ivan and i had to bail out from that thread

[/ QUOTE ]

Who revived it?

[/ QUOTE ]

519AT......the guilty party.

 

[A320_DUDE]

[ QUOTE ]
Doug couldnt have said it more Perfectly.

I am 16 and HIGHLY into business, politics, foreign affairs, blah blah blah.

And if no one noticed THE MORE YOU EARN THE MORE TAXES YOU PAY

i bet my life that Doug pays about 46.5% in taxes on annual income.
Right Doug?

Any way most of the rampers ARE HIGH SCHOOL dropOUTS.

IF they Dont want to go and finish high school or and go to colllege for 4 aggonizing years and then go to training school then WHY The h*ll should they get paid more???

Tell me that please. SO what if they help keep planes on time actually its the pilots work to do that the just waiv a orange flag to help the pilot dock.

So what do you say now huh? my seven year old brother can do that

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I can't begin to tell you how disrespectful those comments are. Not only to me(a CSA/Ramper) but to ALL Rampers ALL over the world.

And the fact is this thread isn't about ramp agent pay. If you think anyone can do it......come visit me at JFK between November and January.....I'll show you how easy it is.

 

[Guest]

Every job has its own difficulties. You can't just generallize and say that all rampers are uneducated bums. Just like you can't say that all airline pilots are overpaid. It's comparing apples to oranges here.

 

[AirborneMedic_ANGa10]

Let me repeat my comment from 2 YEARS AGO...to the day ironically! JC'ers meet.........................dead horse.

 

[tonyw]

I think it's time for a big ole flush. Either with the blue juice or the new high tech giant sucking sound, but it's time!