Are Major Airline pilots overpaid?

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737 Dude,
All i have to say is AMEN. I am sure most of the people that are against me are people who have never had any experience on what rampers, dispatchers and operation agents do. I am sure if you were in my shoes or 737, you would understand how much work we have to put in order to get a plane off the ground on time. Through out these forum no one has given me a solid answer or fact as to why we don't deserve to get paid well. Yes, airline pilots do spend days away from theri families- i think every pilot must have known that this was going to happen before she/he got into this profession. And if that is in fact why airline pilots make $200/hour- then it is pathetic! The only thing i read is that people look at our job as designated for the lower class and the unprofessionals.
Dont' get me wrong- i am very passinate about flying and i hope to become a Corporate Pilot for HP or other high tech company.
 
Just think of any job this way. Professional athletes make the big money because they generate the money for the franchise. If you take away the players, then no money is generated. So where does all the money go that is being generated, to the owner/owners of the franchise. So who should be making the most money here, the hotdog and beer salesmen or the players? Of course, the players. It use to not be that way. The owner/owners of the frnachise were the ones making all the money. If you think someone who earns 50 million in X amount years in their contract shouldn't make that kind of money, think again. When player make that kind of money, that means there is enormous amounts of revenue being generated, and if the player didn't get it then the owners would. The playesr deserve what they get because they are the ones generating money for the company. The owners of course deserve there cut and should be paid more than what the playes receive; after all, they own the company. Pilots in high paying postions are being paid what they are worth. Whithout the planes there is no airline travel, and without the pilots there is no airline travel and no revenue being generated. If there were no ramp personnel, there would still be an airline industry. Capitalism is what made this country and what makes it so great. No one has the right to say to anyone... you make too much money. If you are not happy with the wages that you earn, then do something about it. There will always be the poor sap who is jealous of the next guy. " I make only $25k a and you make $200k year, that's no fare". That's life, deal with it! I'm a 30 year old capitalist, who just finished college with years of debt on my back, who makes no money, with dreams of making millions. Are you going to whine about those who make more than you, or are you willing to do what it will take to become what you feel is successful!
 
I would love to put people in a ground ops job for one day to see what it was like.....I've always joked that passengers should do a day in the field....but some of you guys should! Do any of you know what it is to look at 137 passengers and say "Ladies and Gentleman, due to weather we are delayed....with no ETD".....OR work on a day where you have 17 inbound diversions....fully loaded....but only have TWO jetways to accomdate everyone. I am damn proud to have been a operations agent and a customer service agent....I can turn a 737 in 15 min and a A320 in 25min. I would love to see some of you people do that. This little thread is why there are so many issues between Ground Ops and Flight Ops....because neither side recongize what the other side does. I just hope when you guys and girls become professional pilots (notice I did not say Airline!) you will treat that fueler,CSA,Ramper,Ops Agent with some respect.......Because you have shown none to me,n77j,and zombie for the kick ass job we do!
 
I wish I had a background in economics before opening up this can of worms, but here it goes. And keep in mind this is just my spin on things.

We live in a free market, and as I understand, the market and competetion drive just about everything. Therefore, I'm going to step out on a limb, and say that I believe NOBODY in a free market society is over or under paid. Yes, we would all like more money, and we all probably think we are underpaid.

In my mind, it works like this. Management or a business owner will pay you as little as they can, up to as much as they can afford based on your added value to the company (and how much you gripe). If it makes financial sense to get rid of you, you will lose your job. In the case of automation- navigators, radio operators, and flight engineers. I believe that if ground ops could be automated and if it would save money in the long run, it would be automated. Same token with pilots except that you are dealing with the public's perception of safety and having a computer make decisions.

If a labor group demands more than the company's board thinks is financially possible, it leaves only one option for the company-to quit operating as it has been. This means bankruptcy, selling the company to someone who thinks they can do it, merging, changing strategies, B scales, bringing in scabs, whatever.

On the other hand, if you don't like what you are offered, you can work to change it, just take it (BOHICA) or quit. You quitting is taken into account by asking, "if so and so leaves, how hard will it be to replace and train that person?" The answer determines what they are willing to pay you--more for an employee that is harder to find, more expensive to train, etc. and less for people that can be brought on board quickly. I think this sheds light on the ground ops/pilot debate.

Neither group is more important, and it takes everyone to make the show run smoothly. However, if you need to replace 500 rampers vs. 500 pilots in the midst of a crisis, my guess is that it would be easier to get 500 new rampers up to speed than it would be 500 new pilots.

There was mention of this in the book "Hard Landing", but I can't seem to find it. Several contracts were up for re-negotiation, and management's thinking was, "If we can just get the pilots to sign, the airline will continue to run. It will run at reduced capacity, but if the pilots quit working, the passengers don't get anywhere." Again, I don't think anyone is more important than anyone else, just prioritized differently by how much of a pain in management's butt you are. A300 capt. said it, "You don't get what you deserve, but what you negotiate."

It's funny I find myself thinking about this issue again. If you are still reading this, and don't mind bearing with me, I'm going to tell you a story in a fashion similar to one of the examiners at the FlightSafety Academy.

I was a ski patrollman for a couple of years. (Yes, sometimes I wonder why I decided to become a pilot, but not often enough to quit) Now the patrollers in the world are fairly small in number and a tight knit group for the most part. I think the job has a lot in commom with piloting.

First, we all loved the job. It was an amazing way to spend your time, and sometimes you would giggle knowing that you were being paid to get fist tracks in 18" of new powder while the paying public waited in long lines for the lift to open. Ahhhhh....I've got that grin right now just thinking about it! We also didn't take the job home with us (most of the time). Once the day was done, you were free to live it up with your buds, or if you were lucky enough, with a lady. It was also an amzing and powerful experience to be able to throw explosives on the slopes and trigger one of nature's most awesome displays of power!

However, just like any coin, there is another side. You wonder what the hell you are doing with a college education making $8 bucks an hour. You wonder (and these were all real accidents) if anyone will have a double femur fracture, or a flap of their scalp flipped down over their face, or whether you'll have to tell a retired Air Force fighter pilot that he is now paralyzed, or quite frankly whether someone will die that day, including your co-workers. You wonder as you wake up at 4 a.m. in order to be at the hill assembling explosives before your coffe takes hold. You wonder as you stand on top of a ridge with a 40 m.p.h. wind, in a cloud, learning first had about rime icing (I'm not kidding, I could watch it accumulate on my leading a$$, I mean edge) whether or not you are going to have to do an avalanche beacon search as you can no longer see your partner in the whiteout. You wonder how a nice spring day at the top lift shack could turn into un-erraseable memories of a young snowboarder cartwheeling down 300 ft worth of cliffs and why you had to be second on scene as you watch him die. (By the way, did I mention I made $8 bucks an hour?)

We felt we were under paid. Were we? Not according to what I wrote in the beginning, but hell yes we were underpaid! Interestingly enough, a couple patrols are unionized. We figured we'd try and change things, and if it didn't work, we'd get representation. We butted heads with management. We threatened, they threatened. (It never happened because we couldn't get a unified front, but amazing in itself, we did actually get the CEO, Earl Holding, in a meeting.) Long story short, management figured if we didn't like it we could leave. We figured, they can't afford to replace us, because there aren't that many patrollers out there, and like pilots, if we didn't work (mainly avalance control), the mountain wouldn't open. Too bad we didn't factor in the important point that the whole mountain operation was, unlike airlines, a big money loser, a tax write off, and a way for a billionaire to stoke his ego.

In the end, the patrollers are still working for the same wages. Did anyone leave? Not really. Why? Because like flying, despite all of the hardships, there isn't anything like the comraderie, or a sunrise from altitude. If the market demanded, we would have been paid more. If Earl could have gotten away with it, I guarantee you we would have been paid less. Same goes with any job.

My advice, make sure you enjoy what you do, otherwise you are underpaid.
 
Hello,

I agree that senior pilots at some airlines are overpaid, but I also feel that most junior pilots are underpaid. I says this after looking at the wages posted at Jet-Jobs.com. The overall pay scale ought to be flattened out so that career pilots earn a greater percentage of theirincome in their early years and can better perpare should they have to retire from flying early due to reasons beyond their control.

About those claims regarding drug testing, strange hours, life on the road, contract renewals, disqualification for medical reasons, the struggle just to get a mainline job, etc....well, those are all personal choices. You pay your money & take your chances.

Personally, I feel that the mainlines ought to freeze senior pilots' pay so they can hire more pilots so that all fly fewer hours / days and have more time for themselves.

And I certainly do agree that the rampers, agents, cleaners & mechanics ought to get a bigger bite of the payroll budget before the pilots do.

Regarding that comment about that pilot getting paid $200k+ to taxi ( insinuating that the plane, atc & dispatch can do most all else!), I believe he was the 777 captain teaching at the state university. Is that correct?

John
 
I wonder what would happen if all the ground ops employees walked at each and every airline......would they really be able to fly.....I Don't think so! AGAIN I will say....this comments in this thread is why Ground & Flight Ops will always continue to have problems with each other......Airline mangement have always s**t on Ground Ops. This thread really hits home with me,I have been in ground ops for almost 4 years now and am amzazed at the attitude some of the Flight Ops type (not you Doug!) walk around with, that they are something special...I have personally experienced times where I have said a simple "Hello" to pilots and F/As and either gotten ignored or the snotty look. For people who say we don't deserve a higher base pay.....that's what you may believe....BUT until you deice and aircraft in blowing snow and ice, work 5 flights back to back with no break,or have to do a 10 min turn or risk having your crew go illegal....then you people have no idea! WE ARE NOT SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, yet we are treated like this by everyone.......I could care less that a 747 CPT makes 300K....a little respect would be nice!
 
We're never going to get anywhere with this...it's kinda depressing to read.
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I agree with 737Dude and several of the other guys...they are underappreciated. That's the way things tend to work in a field with such a defined hierarchy. People need to show respect to people. There's too much "I'm a pilot, you're just a ramper", or "I'm an attorney, you're just a police officer" in today's world. We're all just people doing a job and going home at the end of a day or trip. The attitude we're all taking doesn't accomplish anything. Who really cares, it's just a job. Even if you when the rat race, you're still just a rat!

Now how 'bout we end this discussion, and move on to something more productive.
 
I agree that everyone should have respect reguardless of position. Its not just in the airline business that this happens, I know a few nurses and they get no respect from doctors, and yet nurses do most of the hard work etc etc.

I treat everyone as a human being reguardless of who they are, so you won't see me being all 'upity' with you ground guys, everyone has to work as a team to get the plane away, and the pilot is just a single member of that team.
 
Doug,

I agree totally with you.There is no such thing as a free lunch in this world.I would say that pilots should be paid according to the amount of work that they put in as a worker is worthy of his wages.
 
I agree this thread was never meant to go anywhere.... a typical: : "I do more than you" social phenomena... will always be a part of the average joe's thinking.

Btw you can't name one job which is not being criticised for this or the other reason by others who have no clue about it...

a few pathethic ones:

soldiers (yeah but they don't fight 99% the time)
cops (they are all corrupt)
teachers (they have so many free time with the holidays)
lawyers (they are only there to turn you out of your $$)
etc... etc... etc...

all dumb but absolutely common views you hear daily... actually with the last one I may even agree myself LOL... probably I am wrong though...

come on someone throw in a nice "how it was to flew from here to there yesterday" thread... It is 6AM, I can't sleep as I was dirt bycicling first time ever yesterday in my life and busted my butt on a intermediate trail... I'd like to read something about flying...
 
First of all i have to say that i don't think Major Airline pilots are not overpaid. Points mentiones by Doug and others are right. You have to accept a lot of restrictions in your private life. Believe me a 4 day trip is not always fun.

I want to say something to a previous statement of somebody who said young oilots are underpaid. I agree partly but what to you expect for a salary flying a B1900 or dash8 with 19 or 30 passengers. I don't say you have less to work but 150 paying passengers less in your back.

What do you get if you do a normal education to work in a Bank. The first years are the toughest but by gaining experience you' ll become more valuable for an airline!

A 25 years experienced Airline pilot has a huge value for an airlines. If they don't pay him well he'll leave and work for another company and bring his full experience maybe as training or check captain into that company!
 
And we don't accept restrictions in OUR personal life. In almost 4 years of Ground Ops, I've worked every major hoilday,my birthday,and I've missed all kind of special events. We usually don't have a social life outside work (very true if your junior!). Pilots and F/As are restricted on how many hours they can work in one day.....I've worked shifts were I have punched in a 5AM and punched out at 2AM the next morning......due to the needs of the operation. I am not saying that pilots should not be paid for what they do......but,DO NOT say that "Hey, there just rampers and CSAs, they don't deserve to have a decent payscale". That is eliteist and what got me,n77j,and Zombie pissed off. What we do may look very easy, but not everyone can do it!
 
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737_DUDE, n77j,and Zombie And we don't accept restrictions in OUR personal life.

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Oh cry me a f'n river.

As soon as your job REQUIRES (key word) a professional education, significant GOVERNMENT REQUIRED LICENSES, major league competition, and perhaps one of the lowest entry wages in labor history (when compared to other unionized trades, or when compared to the senior workforce in the same trade) then I'll wipe the crocodile tears from your cheeks for you.

In the mean time. why don't you unionize, if you are not already, and have a collective bargaining agreement that reflect your true worth. Unless you are suggestion the guy with 15 years on the job tossing my suitcase (after he has run it over with the tractor) is on par with the 15 year airline pilot. Then you should stay put here (on jetcareers.com) and whine some more.
 
Okay,Eagle here is a a real life situation and tell me if it warrented me getting paid $9.29 per hour.

One day I punched in at 1300 for what was supposed to be a easy day at the gate,4 flights to BWI are really easy to work. Well 2 people call out sick....my supe is stuck as GSC at the security checkpoint, which makes me defacto supe because I am the most senior on the PM shift. My first flight made it in, but then ATC issues a ground stop for all southbound traffic, so now you have to start sweating because the flight is full and you have ton of connects. Meanwhile I miss myfirst break because I cannot leave the gate....All of a sudden ATC decides to issue a ground stop extending from RDU to BGR....next update in an hour...now on a friday afternoon..I have to start pullung and rebooking passengers on one flight and start checking in the next one......I have people getting upset left and right because there is no iinfomation...but I have to stay PROFESSIONAL and keep my cool. Next the crew to do my first flight finds out their not making it to their base tonight as schedule, they instead have to fly to BOI, so they turn into complete and utter a**holes. My next flight some how makes it in to be told...your not going anywhere. Between all this I'm taking calls from the ticket counter,dispatch,CSC and crew scheduling. Thats when I find out my third flight (which should be in-range of BWI) is sitting in CLE trying to make it into MDW so it can start that flight to BWI. So I have to try and find room for the people on the two earlier flights that are still sitting at the gate. Finally the ground stop is lifted,BUT my second flight somehow wrangels a clearence to BWI flirst so the people on the first flight nearly revolt. Finally both flights depart...think its over yet...hell no. Dispatch has decided that now is a good time to start recovering the sked so they cancell a BWI-BDL roundtrip.....Which screws anychance I had of getting people to their destination that night. After rebooking I relize that my next airplane which should be landing now.....is still in the middle of it HOU-BWI leg....rerouted because of the crappy weather it's currently over Chicago. Finally at about 2230 I get a break....OVER 8 hrs after I had punched in. After taking a break....and decideing wheather or not to quit I head back up the the gate where my supe gives me the bad news.....we have to do a 10 min turn or the crew goes illegal...and since people have been here since 1400 we need to do this. So we do a "all-hands on deck" turn..and get 137 passengers off and put another 137 on....what time do I leave.....sorry I can't leave yet, I have to help move aircraft and help throw bags because the ramp is short handed because they can't find enought QUALIFIED people to do it.

I got paid $9.29 an hour for that night.....I still don't know how I made it....and if you talk to any ground ops employee,for any airline ...and you will get simliar stories. So tell me Eagle was I overpaid for that?
 
737 DUDE - In circumstances like that you do deserve more then what you earn, however those are not usual circumstances, and I am sure people from many different professions have similar stoies, heck I certainly do from working behind the bar.
 
Not to be rude Iain,....if you work for a airline in the Northeast....sadly that may be a normal day for you.....or maybe I just have really bad luck!
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Being a pilot in training I do think the most senior pilots are overpaid. I mean come on 275k or so a year. Yes it takes skill to fly in adverse conditions and keep up with the training and all that. But I am also an A&amp;P mechanic. We are well underpaid for what we do and thats no secret. Try changing the number 2 engine on a 727 in the rain or freezing weather. It takes alot of skill and knowledge to keep these new planes in the air with all the avionics used in them now and a topped out mechanic at an airline makes about 36 or so an hour. So I think both of these groups deserve a high pay. The execs dont do anything near as challenging as these 2 groups. Although some are good at running them into the ground but we wont go there. But in conclusion I think some pilots are overpaid while some like the Regional guys are way underpaid. Thats just my two cents
 
Thank you for asking, but no i do not think they are.
Executives, politicians and pro athletes are. Everone esle has to earn their pay.
 
It all comes down to economics. How much revenue do you generate for your company while at work? How easily are you replaced and how much time and money is it going to cost the company to train your replacement in order to generate the same revenue. I can probably do your job, can you do mine? How long will it take to train me to do your job? How long to do mine?

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Pilots and F/As are restricted on how many hours they can work in one day.....

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There's a good reason for this, it's called safety! Most of these rules and regulations were written in blood. Most came about because of accidents in the past. If you make a mistake, what are the chances of someone dying? That's why I think mechanics should be paid more.

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I wonder what would happen if all the ground ops employees walked at each and every airline......would they really be able to fly.....I Don't think so!

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Your right, they wouldn't be able to fly initially, but they would be up and running a lot faster then if the pilots and/or FA's walked out. Again, economics...how fast and how cheaply can the airline replace you.

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I have been in ground ops for almost 4 years now and am amzazed at the attitude some of the Flight Ops type (not you Doug!) walk around with, that they are something special...I have personally experienced times where I have said a simple "Hello" to pilots and F/As and either gotten ignored or the snotty look.

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I got news for you. I've lost count over the years of how many times I've made a cordial gesture toward another ground employee and have received the same response as you discribed. I don't know if it's an animosity thing, someone having a bad day or just plan shyness on that person's part. You get to the point where you just do your job and sort of tune others out. Or maybe, that person has a lot on their mind at the moment and may look at you but doesn't really see you. That may come across as smugness. Your right though, there are a$$es, but they're on both sides.

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In almost 4 years of Ground Ops, I've worked every major hoilday,my birthday,and I've missed all kind of special events.

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You'll get empathy, but not sympathy, from pilots and FA's on this matter. I've lost count over the years on how many holidays, birthdays and special events I've missed...and it's been much longer than 4 years for me.

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I've worked shifts were I have punched in a 5AM and punched out at 2AM the next morning......due to the needs of the operation.

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I've worked long days (nights) also over the years. I've done 16 hr duty (nights) after being up all day the day before. Try that and still maintain the concentration level to operate "heavy" machinery in all kinds of weather any place in the world.

When you experience service delays it's not always the pilot's fault and your not operating in a vacuum. We are all effected, and our day possibly just got crapped on also. Maybe we've been on the road all week finishing a very long duty day, away from our family, and are now going to miss our last connecting flight home. At least after a long day, no matter how long it is, you still get to go home.

I'm not attacking you Jason. I've enjoyed your post and you make some really good comments. Every job as it's pros and cons and this discussion could go on forever without solving anything. I agree you have a tough job at times and it can be stressfull. I wouldn't have the patience to do it.
 
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