Are Major Airline pilots overpaid?
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A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
A300Capt
Thank you for your comments.....I know people have a bad day....I have them to. What upset me here is that people here have called ground ops employees "uneducated" and made it seem that we are easily picked off the street. We Are Not! Take for instance my CSA class at WN.....we started with 30.....only 16 of us made it back home with our jobs intact...and at the time I left, only 4 of us were left. The people who stay are PROFESSIONALS and deserve PROFESSIONAL pay. I'm not saying I wan't 100K for checking in a flight....but I would like to be compesated for the job that I do. As I say tons of people in ground ops have one degree or another....we just like our jobs! Some work them for travel,some work them because your not tied to a desk for 8hrs...and alot of them are like me......we love working we the planes,working outdoors,and working with the crews (MCO crews ROCK!)! Maybe at one time ground ops was the uneducated dumping ground...but it is far from that today. I'm sorry if I took this tread too serious.....but I was really offended by some of the things you guys said. Sorry for another long post!
Thank you for your comments.....I know people have a bad day....I have them to. What upset me here is that people here have called ground ops employees "uneducated" and made it seem that we are easily picked off the street. We Are Not! Take for instance my CSA class at WN.....we started with 30.....only 16 of us made it back home with our jobs intact...and at the time I left, only 4 of us were left. The people who stay are PROFESSIONALS and deserve PROFESSIONAL pay. I'm not saying I wan't 100K for checking in a flight....but I would like to be compesated for the job that I do. As I say tons of people in ground ops have one degree or another....we just like our jobs! Some work them for travel,some work them because your not tied to a desk for 8hrs...and alot of them are like me......we love working we the planes,working outdoors,and working with the crews (MCO crews ROCK!)! Maybe at one time ground ops was the uneducated dumping ground...but it is far from that today. I'm sorry if I took this tread too serious.....but I was really offended by some of the things you guys said. Sorry for another long post!
I read somewhere that SouthWest pilots sometimes go and do baggage handling, it is supposed to help make the whole company work as a team. Anyone know if this is true?
I understand what the three guys are saying, it is hard work. However, being jealous of the pilots is not the answer. Nurses get paid so little compared to the doctors in an ER. Who does all the brunt work, the nurses!
I think the most important thing that ALPA has done for pilots is to move them out of the blue-collared category to the white-collared one. And they deserve it. Every airline pilot I know is smart, well educated and passionate. They carry a lot of responsibility on their shoulders and they should be compensated for it.
I saw one comment which said that an airline could survive without ramp crew. That's kind of dumb. Ramp workers are very important. They should collectively demand better wages.
Someone said that airline pilots should max out at $150,000 a year. In that case, lets make doctors max out at $99,000 a year, they don't do much, the nurses do all the hard work. LOL. You can't set ceilings in a capitalist society, it won't work!
Mahesh
I understand what the three guys are saying, it is hard work. However, being jealous of the pilots is not the answer. Nurses get paid so little compared to the doctors in an ER. Who does all the brunt work, the nurses!
I think the most important thing that ALPA has done for pilots is to move them out of the blue-collared category to the white-collared one. And they deserve it. Every airline pilot I know is smart, well educated and passionate. They carry a lot of responsibility on their shoulders and they should be compensated for it.
I saw one comment which said that an airline could survive without ramp crew. That's kind of dumb. Ramp workers are very important. They should collectively demand better wages.
Someone said that airline pilots should max out at $150,000 a year. In that case, lets make doctors max out at $99,000 a year, they don't do much, the nurses do all the hard work. LOL. You can't set ceilings in a capitalist society, it won't work!
Mahesh
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As I say tons of people in ground ops have one degree or another....
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so f'n what? is it a requirement? if it is Sure pay a professional wage if it isn't then pay the going rate.
It is not rocket science. it may be a difficult job, but so is "Paper or Plastic" if you do it for long enough.
Repeat after me.
<font color="red"> Ramp agent and luggage/ramp crew does not require higher education. these are valuable and important positions. But because I have a college degree and not working in a job that requires it I understand I will be paid at the going rate. </font color>
So if you worked long hours for a crappy boss at McDonalds, you should be paid at an executive rate because you have a degree?
As I say tons of people in ground ops have one degree or another....
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so f'n what? is it a requirement? if it is Sure pay a professional wage if it isn't then pay the going rate.
It is not rocket science. it may be a difficult job, but so is "Paper or Plastic" if you do it for long enough.
Repeat after me.
<font color="red"> Ramp agent and luggage/ramp crew does not require higher education. these are valuable and important positions. But because I have a college degree and not working in a job that requires it I understand I will be paid at the going rate. </font color>
So if you worked long hours for a crappy boss at McDonalds, you should be paid at an executive rate because you have a degree?
Capitalism and a free market.
Need more money? Nothing in the world is holding Americans back from pursuing highly paid jobs other than their own ambition or lack thereof
Physical labor is cheap and abundant because 99.999% of all people can provide it. Remember, the world needs ditch diggers and most of the country is able to use a shovel. Big supply plus low demand equals low pay.
I think everyone is forgetting that most everyone in this country is "underpaid". $9.29 for a ramp job is bad, but my wife makes about 3x that as a civil engineer. Is she overpaid? Not for the amount of work she puts into her job.
But then, her CAD operators get about $12/hr. Any average "Joe Six Pack" can take a weekend course at DeVry and come out a certified CAD operator, but there aren't a lot of weekend courses for civil engineering.
But when it comes to things like engineering design, coordinating projects, getting screamed at during public hearings from the "NIMBY" crowd and producing a structural design correctly the first time and on budget is a rare, sought-after skill. Which, of course, is why she's paid a lot more than the average engineering office foot soldier.
The reason why the "lower-end" pilot jobs are so low paid is because if you read the forums closely enough, about 50% of my users are eager to pay thousands of dollars to sit right seat in a turbine aircraft for flight experience. Why on earth would a company give a low time pilot a living wage when there is a line out the door of people willing to cut him a $20,000 check and fly for free for the right to say that they've got "X" amount of flight time in a turbine aircraft.
Need more money? Nothing in the world is holding Americans back from pursuing highly paid jobs other than their own ambition or lack thereof
Physical labor is cheap and abundant because 99.999% of all people can provide it. Remember, the world needs ditch diggers and most of the country is able to use a shovel. Big supply plus low demand equals low pay.
I think everyone is forgetting that most everyone in this country is "underpaid". $9.29 for a ramp job is bad, but my wife makes about 3x that as a civil engineer. Is she overpaid? Not for the amount of work she puts into her job.
But then, her CAD operators get about $12/hr. Any average "Joe Six Pack" can take a weekend course at DeVry and come out a certified CAD operator, but there aren't a lot of weekend courses for civil engineering.
But when it comes to things like engineering design, coordinating projects, getting screamed at during public hearings from the "NIMBY" crowd and producing a structural design correctly the first time and on budget is a rare, sought-after skill. Which, of course, is why she's paid a lot more than the average engineering office foot soldier.
The reason why the "lower-end" pilot jobs are so low paid is because if you read the forums closely enough, about 50% of my users are eager to pay thousands of dollars to sit right seat in a turbine aircraft for flight experience. Why on earth would a company give a low time pilot a living wage when there is a line out the door of people willing to cut him a $20,000 check and fly for free for the right to say that they've got "X" amount of flight time in a turbine aircraft.
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Okay,Eagle here is a a real life situation and tell me if it warrented me getting paid $9.29 per hour.
One day I punched in at 1300 for what was supposed to be a easy day at the gate,4 flights to BWI are really easy to work. Well 2 people call out sick....my supe is stuck as GSC at the security checkpoint, which makes me defacto supe because I am the most senior on the PM shift. My first flight made it in, but then ATC issues a ground stop for all southbound traffic, so now you ...
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Sounds like a hard job for the amount of money you earn, but study engineering in college and you can make way more than that.
Okay,Eagle here is a a real life situation and tell me if it warrented me getting paid $9.29 per hour.
One day I punched in at 1300 for what was supposed to be a easy day at the gate,4 flights to BWI are really easy to work. Well 2 people call out sick....my supe is stuck as GSC at the security checkpoint, which makes me defacto supe because I am the most senior on the PM shift. My first flight made it in, but then ATC issues a ground stop for all southbound traffic, so now you ...
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Sounds like a hard job for the amount of money you earn, but study engineering in college and you can make way more than that.
A320_DUDE
Well-Known Member
Eagle,
Dude....one word of advice.....next time you you take a airline flight as a passenger....make sure you never make those comments out loud....because if you do...expect to get that extra special grope from the security goons...and I would hesitate to wonder where your bags would end up! Also for whoever ask....yes the pilots at WN do throw bags...some of them even come to help out on their off days! When Herbie decided that communication was breaking down between the rampers and the pilots (for some of the same reasons listed in the thread) he instuted a "Day in the Field" program.....I know pilots work hard...I flew with one crew from BWI-MDW-HOU-MSY-TPA.....That's a hell of a day,and I have had pilots and F/As do a Day with me. But there are still issues between Flight Ops and Ground Ops....I just hope some of you "future airline pilots" don't keep the attitude that you are special.....that gets nowhere quick with the ramp,CSA,or OPS! BTW the majority of the issues are not with the senior pilots I have encountered.....its usually the cocky rookies on their IOE that like crap on us!
Dude....one word of advice.....next time you you take a airline flight as a passenger....make sure you never make those comments out loud....because if you do...expect to get that extra special grope from the security goons...and I would hesitate to wonder where your bags would end up! Also for whoever ask....yes the pilots at WN do throw bags...some of them even come to help out on their off days! When Herbie decided that communication was breaking down between the rampers and the pilots (for some of the same reasons listed in the thread) he instuted a "Day in the Field" program.....I know pilots work hard...I flew with one crew from BWI-MDW-HOU-MSY-TPA.....That's a hell of a day,and I have had pilots and F/As do a Day with me. But there are still issues between Flight Ops and Ground Ops....I just hope some of you "future airline pilots" don't keep the attitude that you are special.....that gets nowhere quick with the ramp,CSA,or OPS! BTW the majority of the issues are not with the senior pilots I have encountered.....its usually the cocky rookies on their IOE that like crap on us!
AirborneMedic_ANGa10
New Member
This thread blows....
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Dude....onw word of advice.....next time you you take a airline flight as a passenger....make sure you never make those comments out loud....because if you do...expect to get that extra special grope from the security goons...and I would hesitate to wonder where your bags would end up!
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Reason 312, why I own my airplane outright, and never fly commercial. Hell I can't figure out what to do with my 500,000 Frequent Flyer Miles. (seriously)
Dude....onw word of advice.....next time you you take a airline flight as a passenger....make sure you never make those comments out loud....because if you do...expect to get that extra special grope from the security goons...and I would hesitate to wonder where your bags would end up!
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Reason 312, why I own my airplane outright, and never fly commercial. Hell I can't figure out what to do with my 500,000 Frequent Flyer Miles. (seriously)
I won't use any names here, but "Airline X" used to have rampers that were actual "Airline X" employees. They found out it was cheaper to ferret out the work to a temp firm and they did so. Then that specific temp firm became too expensive and they hired another temp firm to handle ground ops.
As long as most of the bags reach their intended destination, the flights are on time and you don't vote in a union, management will pay "unskilled" labor the lowest wage possible.
In a capitalistic society, such as ours, there is an imaginary chart where on the X axis, there is salary, and on the Y axis there is the number of people willing to work for that salary.
Now if a company needs five workers, they're going to look at that chart and say, "Well, I only need five workers and 50 guys are willing to work for $20/hr, 25 are willing to work for $15/hr, 10 are willing to work for $10/hr and 5 are willing to work for $7.
Fair enough. Put an ad in the paper showing "Widget makers needed! starting wage is $7/hr".
As long as those widgets are produced on time, with "first time quality" and production liability is low, that will remain a $7/hr job.
Otherwise, there really is no incentive to perform well in school, no reason to invent new products, no need to take financial risks and no reason to work extra hard to move up the career platform if we all made $45,000 per year in America.
As long as most of the bags reach their intended destination, the flights are on time and you don't vote in a union, management will pay "unskilled" labor the lowest wage possible.
In a capitalistic society, such as ours, there is an imaginary chart where on the X axis, there is salary, and on the Y axis there is the number of people willing to work for that salary.
Now if a company needs five workers, they're going to look at that chart and say, "Well, I only need five workers and 50 guys are willing to work for $20/hr, 25 are willing to work for $15/hr, 10 are willing to work for $10/hr and 5 are willing to work for $7.
Fair enough. Put an ad in the paper showing "Widget makers needed! starting wage is $7/hr".
As long as those widgets are produced on time, with "first time quality" and production liability is low, that will remain a $7/hr job.
Otherwise, there really is no incentive to perform well in school, no reason to invent new products, no need to take financial risks and no reason to work extra hard to move up the career platform if we all made $45,000 per year in America.
I_Money
Moderator
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Hell I can't figure out what to do with my 500,000 Frequent Flyer Miles. (seriously)
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You can always donate them to families who need to travel for medical reasons, and can not afford it. When my dad collected superfluous airmiles he frequently did this. I am sure if you give the airline a call they will help you out.
I think A300Capt, explained the situation very well!!
Hell I can't figure out what to do with my 500,000 Frequent Flyer Miles. (seriously)
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You can always donate them to families who need to travel for medical reasons, and can not afford it. When my dad collected superfluous airmiles he frequently did this. I am sure if you give the airline a call they will help you out.
I think A300Capt, explained the situation very well!!
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I've worked long days (nights) also over the years. I've done 16 hr duty (nights) after being up all day the day before. Try that and still maintain the concentration level to operate "heavy" machinery in all kinds of weather any place in the world.
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Nothing beats a grueling 18 hour flight and then "...cleared for the Kai Tak visual, UPS 101"
"Uhh, skipper, did you say 40 knot crosswind?"
I've worked long days (nights) also over the years. I've done 16 hr duty (nights) after being up all day the day before. Try that and still maintain the concentration level to operate "heavy" machinery in all kinds of weather any place in the world.
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Nothing beats a grueling 18 hour flight and then "...cleared for the Kai Tak visual, UPS 101"
"Uhh, skipper, did you say 40 knot crosswind?"
I think the big airplane flyers deserve what the get paid. Most pilots, especially now, pay alot of money in training and education to get to the big leagues. I have to agree with what Eagle is saying, but I wouldn't say it so roughly. I work in an area that requires specific training, we get paid alot, sometimes I think too much. I also work outside. On the days when the snow is blowing sideways and the windchill is well below zero (F), I don't think I earn enough. I can empathize with the ramp workers but, there are avenues to go to get training and improve your circumstances. I am currently working on becoming a professional pilot so I can take a 3/4 pay cut to enjoy myself. Sometimes this country is pretty skewed with what they pay certian professions. When that guy on the front line is about to get his life snuffed by the bad guy on the other side and his family is living on food stamps, yea, something is wrong. And don't get me started on teachers. We pay them diddely squat for educating our kids. But by the time you get your opportunutiy to have several hundred lives riding in the back depending on you to get them to thier families or businiess place safely, you pretty much deserve the big bucks. I tell my 14 year old son, he can do anything he sets his mind to in this country, just get the education and training. Look at that freak Bill Clinton (I'm a Republican) he made President, if he can, anyone can.
averyrm
Well-Known Member
I used to work as a ramp agent, now I'm a commercial pilot. I can safely say anyone who thinks that being a ramp agent is a tough position and should be high paying is wrong. W-R-O-N-G wrong. Times can get busy sure, but you know what? So does it during lunch at McDonalds. HS Diploma, Drivers license, no criminal record - that's about it as far as requirements go. You get flight privileges, you get benefits, you should be happy. If you have a PHD and are throwing bags, it must have been in Sanskrit. The majority of the people I worked with were lucky they could spell airplane let alone fuel one. $9.29 an hour for unskilled labor is pretty decent.
If you want something that pays more, do something that deserves to be paid more.
I'm not saying people should be mean to rampers - that sucks - just the position shouldn't be paid more.
If you want something that pays more, do something that deserves to be paid more.
I'm not saying people should be mean to rampers - that sucks - just the position shouldn't be paid more.
This thread is officially dead I think. Very interesting though.....call me biased, but I'm 110% pro-pilot on this issue. I don't even understand how someone can make a statement about how much a pilot's salary is worth after the tragedy on Sept. 11th. If anything it should be more. Yes, this a ladder type answer b/c everyone deserves a salary due to there (position)....BUT the same pilots on Sept.11th continue to jump into those cockpits fearless and fly away...ALWAYS keeping there passengers 110% SAFE! This should make ya'll damn proud too! EXPERIMENT: DAY #1 Go ahead and work a day w/ a ground OPS employee...(on the most toughest....unimaginable day). Day #2 Go sit back seat...no actually sit right seat on a BOEING 747-400. Now lets make the VSBY to hmmmmm 1SM with 1200RVR. Heavy rain and a 50kts x-wind is expected at K_____(insert airport of your choice). Your presently @ 8,000ft. MSL and you lose 3 engines, total electrical failure also....ohhh and lets add a fire in the #1 engine too. Have fun....study up...think about it and then tell me if you still think the Captain should be paid a Marx (LOL) fixed type salary (ex. $125,000). My theory...."as danger increases with altitude soooooo should your salary," end of story. Have a nice day. Cheers, PA44180
AirborneMedic_ANGa10
New Member
Sniff, sniff...anybody smell a dead horse??
A wise person once told me that a pilot doesn't get paid the big bucks for all the years that they fly; they get paid the big bucks for those few seconds when everything goes to hell and the pilot is the only standing thing between life and death for all the passengers on the plane and the safety of people on the ground.
I think that everyone just wants respect in their jobs. I know in my job, the amount of money I make is second to the gratification of a job well done. They can pay me whatever, but what truly *MOTIVATES* me is praise from doing my job well, and knowing that my sacrifices are being appreciated.
[sarcasm]However, who do I think should get paid the big bucks? It's the engineers. After all, we put all the long hours in to make sure that the planes and support equipment are safe and easy to operate!
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But seriously, as a passenger, I just appreciate that everyone - from ground ops, to airport security, to the flight crew, to the flight attendants, to ATC, to scheduling, to the ticket agents, to everyone else who operates behind the scenes away from the eyes of the public - works together as a team to make my flight safe. After all, it takes only one person to NOT do their part to result in disasterous consequences.
Who deserves the pay? I don't know. But who deserves credit for a job well done? Everyone. Who deserves the respect of the public? Probably a lot more than are currently getting it.
I think that everyone just wants respect in their jobs. I know in my job, the amount of money I make is second to the gratification of a job well done. They can pay me whatever, but what truly *MOTIVATES* me is praise from doing my job well, and knowing that my sacrifices are being appreciated.
[sarcasm]However, who do I think should get paid the big bucks? It's the engineers. After all, we put all the long hours in to make sure that the planes and support equipment are safe and easy to operate!
But seriously, as a passenger, I just appreciate that everyone - from ground ops, to airport security, to the flight crew, to the flight attendants, to ATC, to scheduling, to the ticket agents, to everyone else who operates behind the scenes away from the eyes of the public - works together as a team to make my flight safe. After all, it takes only one person to NOT do their part to result in disasterous consequences.
Who deserves the pay? I don't know. But who deserves credit for a job well done? Everyone. Who deserves the respect of the public? Probably a lot more than are currently getting it.
n77j
Well-Known Member
Well, said copaman- that was a good reply and thanx for your appreciation. And in reply to those who have repeatdly said weather, 9/11, plane accidents, and the disruption of our biological clock is why airlines pilot should get paid high- wow i am really looking forward to this job..if that is all!
BTW-my dad also worked in the airlines for 33 years and he is having a blast reading some of the comments.
BTW-my dad also worked in the airlines for 33 years and he is having a blast reading some of the comments.
Fiiiiiiine. I give up. Tell ya what, in another 5 to 10 years, someone may email you this thread and ask how your views have changed about the profession after being in it for a while!
Believe me, I've been there and done that! Just trying to bridge the gap between perception and reality.
Believe me, I've been there and done that! Just trying to bridge the gap between perception and reality.
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